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The 2011 airshow season

Post information on other airshows and events here.
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Sheff
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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by Sheff » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:41 am

Unfortunately you're not the first to say "if you don't like it then don't go" of course and I'm afraid it achieves nothing. You may as well use this line about anything. If you don't like the newspapers then don't read them, if you don't like the TV don't watch it. It's not an answer, it's just an obvious comment. Naturally, you can have a perfectly valid view of something without participating in it.

Your interest seem to centre around photographic requirements. If that is what you want from a show then you'd be better-off going to a "photoshoot" like the one held at Northolt. Problem with these is that you end-up with hundreds of almost identical photos taken by dozens of people. You may as well save the money and effort of going, and look at the photos on the internet. Same applies to shows. If the few remaining interesting aircraft were positioned purely for photography, there would be thousands of identical photographs floating around within hours. Hardly seems worth the bother.

If you want good air show photos, particularly from a place like Waddington, then as you mention, the best plan is to stand outside. You can get excellent photographs, it's easier to get in and out, and it costs nothing. If people are crazy enough to pay money to be herded into a field with screaming kids, hot dog vans, bouncy castles and be positioned half a mile away from the nearest flying exhibit, then more fool them, say I. They're being had. I know that this view is regarded as heresy by some enthusiasts but so what? This daft notion that we are somehow obliged to stoically support shows as if they're created as a favour is just silly. The show organisers state quite specifically that their objective is to get tickets sold and make money. It therefore follows that as a potential punter, one is entitled to question the perceived value of the event.

Okay, I accept that many enthusiasts are quite young and they simply don't know any better. They doubtless think that RIAT, Waddington and the like are just great. That's because they've not seen anything better. But anyone who was around during the 1980s-era knows just how dull the shows now are. That's why so many of us can't be bothered to go. It's far too easy to offer the same old reasons why the shows are now so poor but these arguments aren't definitive answers. They simply indicate that the show concept no longer works. This doesn't mean that we have to give up and find another hobby. It means that something different needs to be created that does work.

It gives me no pleasure to lament upon the state of our air shows. I'd be delighted if there was some great event to look forward to. But there isn't. There's a handful of fairly tame shows which are worth a look in the absence of anything better, but that's all. Waddington is worth a look from outside but the idea of sitting in a line of cars to plod around a line-up of aircraft which I've seen more times that I can remember, would simply remind me that anything worth seeing has gone to the scrap yard years ago. The only entertainment is the flying and as we've said, this can be seen much more easily (and closely) from outside. As for RIAT, I wouldn't even entertain the notion of booking tickets - and for what? Again, if it was worth going I'd be better off going on arrivals/departures day or watching from Totterdown. I see no value in paying a dollop of cash to see a few aeroplanes which I can see when they fly in or out.

But the thing is, people on forums think my views are unique. They're not - far from it. They paint me as some miserable "Victor Meldrew" character because I don't join-in with the usual frenzy of "this is gonna be great" comments. This is simply because I know from experience that it isn't gonna be great. Trying to whip-up a frenzy just creates disappointment when the reality turns-out to be different to the expectation. I do feel sorry for younger enthusiasts who can hope for nothing better. But at the same time I totally disagree with this notion that it is almost a crime to criticise a show. Why? Are people scared that if we complain they'll take it away from us? I keep trying to emphasise this point - the shows are not created as a goodwill gesture. They're created to make a profit. Why can't we have the guts to actually say that despite all the obvious problems, we still think things could be better? What are some enthusiasts so scared of?

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wokka
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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by wokka » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:16 pm

I'm going to reply to this post at the risk that it descends into the usual I'm right your wrong argument about the provision of airshows but here I go!

I'm of the same opinion about aircraft on a flightline being photographed with flotsam in the background or some spanner with a ladder in the way. I do go to see some of these aircraft but if they are a type which becomes familiar, then on the floor I wouldnt take a second glance. I want to see them in the air because then I can watch what they are built to do and take an interesting photograph if the opportunity presents it. But at the same time, as someone who works all week and cant get to an active military airfield very often, even just looking at them is better than nothing.
The straw that breaks this camels back though is when the big show has a huge cost to get in, holds it over two days, changes the flying programme so you would want to see it both days, doesnt sell tickets on the day so you cant make a choice about weather unless you buy an EVEN more expensive ticket, and then begins to concentrate on support events instead of the aircraft themselves.

So, this puts me in a difficult position. I want to go in, but cant afford to, yet I can see the displays from outside and might get better pictures anyway. Fortunately now, the aircraft arrive before the show and I can get a picture of the ones I want, in the air. But again, it will make me less likely to attend the show itself.

So, the costs have made me change my habit at the big show, and now I look out for more local and unusual displays instead. I'm now less likely to go to say, Cosford, when I can stand on a cliff for free at Dawlish and have unusual views. Or not bother to attend Duxford, and hope to see the odd legend at a Fly-in where I can stand amongst them.

The thing is, these days, I am more likely to go to an airshow but no go in. Lets take the Vulcan for instance. I'll go along somehwere to watch her from the outside, but wont feel guilty not buying the ticket to go in, because I already donate.

There are however, some smaller shows now which make me want to attend rather than go to big ones. For example Abingdon always tries to be unusual so its worth the money.

Best shows these days appear to be Families days!
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NAM Updater
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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by NAM Updater » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:21 pm

A few quick observations re Waddington:

They have done base enthusiast events in the past ‘ACMI era’.

No press preview on Thursday this year.

Waddington does allow on base access for the paying public on arrivals day (Friday) and departures day (Monday) – better photograph opportunities than press enclosure??

As I understand things at Waddington they rely on available accommodation from Lincoln University, hence timing of their show.

Waddington raises thousand of pounds for national and local charities each year – keep up the great work ‘team Waddington!’
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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by NAM Updater » Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:00 pm

Softbill Man wrote:Hi Nam Updater, not clear on what you mean by the comment of 'No press preview on Thursday this year' ???

Only reason why i say this is because it is press day on Thursday and is the reason why the Vulcan shall be arriving and on arrival doing a full display practice. I may have my wres crossed on this one mate and apologise if i have?

Chers
John :thumbs:
John, Item 4 in this year's application pack - "Please note that there is no provision for a general press preview this year...." - only boxes available to tick on the application form were for Saturday and Sunday.

G, my last two airshow items have focused on the charitable fund raising aspects of the show and some of the people it helps; very humbling and important that this role is highlighted.
Howard Heeley - Newark Air Museum Trustee
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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by NAM Updater » Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:33 pm

Sounds good to me!! :thumbs:
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Sheff
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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by Sheff » Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:47 pm

With regard to the subject of the thread:-

Whilst generating cash for charity is to be applauded, it does complicate the airshow debate. In essence it should be an entirely separate issue as the content and quality of a show shouldn't have any relationship to where the profits go. If we go down that path, then the show can legitimately continue to get poorer and poorer, if it is being "propped up" by people's inclination to support a charity. The ultimate expression of this logic is to simply have an open day (without any flying) and ask for the same admission fee, because it's for charity. It's a dangerous path to follow.

I'm firmly of the belief that if any show sets out to charge an admission fee, they can only expect their event to be regarded as a commercial proposition (ie- is it worth paying for). The fact that the profits might go to a charity really shouldn't have any bearing on this at all.

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Sheff
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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by Sheff » Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:37 am

I wasn't referring to you, I meant the usual people who have a go at me! One of the unfortunate aspects of forums is that you can only express a view if it meets with the agreement of the right people. If they don't like what you say, or if you refuse to be cyber-bullied into falling silent, they run to the Moderators and complain, usually asking for the thread to be locked. Happens time and time again on different forums. It's a great shame that these people can't invest a little more time in formulating an intelligent response. Look at the Wadddington thread for example - it's almost comical in parts. Thing is, they don't seem to have any idea how stupid they sound, or that I get private messages supporting me, asking me to carry-on; Lots of people don't want to post anything on the threads, in case they get bullied in the same way. It's a shame that they act like this because we could have some good debates or even arguments, if they could avoid acting like kids. Anyway, back to the subject...

I agree with your sentiments. Although some people seem to think that I enjoy pointing this out (I don't - I just think it's necessary), the air show scene is lamentably poor now, and continues to get worse every year. The heady days of the 1970s and 1980s are gone and they're not coming back. I fully accept that younger enthusiasts probably do still enjoy shows like Waddington or RIAT, simply because they've never experienced anything better. But for most people over the age of about 40, the current crop of shows really aren't worth getting out of bed for. As you say it's really not about the money. It's just the prospect of travelling a long way and sitting in a traffic jam, to see the same things you've seen far too many times before. More F-16s? No thanks. More grey Tornados? Hmm... It really is just a bore. The fools that complain about "freeloaders" who stand outside shows just don't understand that it's not about the cost. Most would be happy to pay. It's about avoiding the masses of people and traffic, in order to use an opportunity to get close to the aeroplanes. In all seriousness, anyone who wants a really good photograph wouldn't be crazy enough to go into a show - it's the worst possible vantage point. I always marvel at how RIAT milks money out of enthusiasts so that they can stand in a great herd on a grandstand, hundreds of 'em all clicking their shutters at the same time to get precisely the same photo. I mean, why bother? It's hardly an achievement. It's just a waste of creativity and money.

I'd be delighted if there was a show to look forward to but there simply isn't. They're all as dull as dishwater so it's a case of simply gleaning enjoyment from them where one can. Aside from the random idiots who haven't got anything useful to say, some people have offered their thoughts on the future of shows, and they make interesting reading. But the way I see it, they're simply tinkering with the existing format. I think that this is a flawed policy. My view is that the only way forward is to abandon the air show concept as it is, and start again from scratch. I've said this many times because I think it's the only approach which stands any chance of working. The existing show format relies on traditions, rules, regulations and expectations which have been around since WWII or longer. We've grown-up knowing what a show should look like. Problem is, this kind of show isn't sustainable. The people who keep bleating about how the shows are still making money are just deluding themselves. The people will either stop coming before too long, or they will keep on coming to see something which bears no relation to what we once knew as an air show. Either way, it's not something to look forward to. The only way out is to start again and create something new which is achievable with the resources that are available. I'm convinced that it can be done, but I'm equally convinced that it's either not going to happen at all, or not happen for a very long time, because there is no will to change. The organisers are still raking-in their money so why would they want to change? You can't blame them. The only hope of change is when people stop blindly going to every show and stop making the usual stoic claims that "they're doing a great job" or how we "should support our lads" and so on. It's an easy attitude to adopt but it's ultimately a poisonous one because it's going to kill-off the very thing that we all want - a decent show.

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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by beefsteak » Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:11 pm

I'm not against freeloaders per say, as I've written elsewhere, I was guilty of it myself as a kid , (Farmers fields at Bassingfield for Tollerton, Bullwell Hall Park for Hucknall,) as funds were tight , my weekly pocket money going on the bus fares just to get there !!, what I am against is people who can afford to go in , standing outside (I appreciate that there is the odd occation where you can get a better shot if you're a photographer) then wailing and moaning about the shows not being as good as they used to !!

For gods sake , surely common sence tells you that if nobody pays the entrance fee then that is the end of the shows full stop. A certain person wants the powers that be to add a fiver to the entrance price to go to the Vulcan , but then brags that he won't be going in himself !! Is that fair ??
Jim Bowen, on "Bullseye" :- In which state of the U.S.A. is Dallas, Texas ??

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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by Richard B » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:00 pm

Looking at the big shows, the events are catering for the spotter, photo brigade by having arrival day viewing etc,
this seems to be good, the event can then cater more for Joe public on the main event day.this is what they are doing and getting good sales from it all.

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Sheff
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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by Sheff » Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:51 pm

Looking at the big shows, the events are catering for the spotter

True, in one sense they are, but in a wider sense they're not because they can no longer get the aircraft that people want to see. It's all very well for the more dedicated people who still find enjoyment is what's left, but there's a huge chunk of people who just aren't interested any more because there's so little to see... and things will inevitably get far, far worse. That's why I think the only way out of this grim spiral is to start again and look at what realistically can be done, rather than trying to prop-up a concept which no longer works.

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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by beefsteak » Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:11 pm

I've just rediscovered a programme from the 1969 Hucknall show in my loft (so I must have paid for that particular show !!) I'll scan the flighy schedule and post it. (You'l be suprised at how little there was !!)
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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by Richard B » Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:24 pm

Sheff wrote:Looking at the big shows, the events are catering for the spotter

True, in one sense they are, but in a wider sense they're not because they can no longer get the aircraft that people want to see. It's all very well for the more dedicated people who still find enjoyment is what's left, but there's a huge chunk of people who just aren't interested any more because there's so little to see... and things will inevitably get far, far worse. That's why I think the only way out of this grim spiral is to start again and look at what realistically can be done, rather than trying to prop-up a concept which no longer works.
Agree the old school are not going i the gates because the lack of content,
hence the arrival days etc being set up to grab some income,

the main days then can be aimed at joe public, as flying acts dwindle the Xfactor seems to be creeing in :lol: .
fashion music etc.

Some of the big events have aircraft flying dureing the show. Reds, BBMF, Blades, wingwalkers, and many others can be found at your town and country or large music event.

just bring the music and a few other bits in to the airshow to make up for the loss of the old flyers and still keep large gates.
the way its going to go in a few years .

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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by NAM Updater » Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:27 pm

beefsteak wrote:I've just rediscovered a programme from the 1969 Hucknall show in my loft (so I must have paid for that particular show !!) I'll scan the flighy schedule and post it. (You'l be suprised at how little there was !!)
Ah but what about 1973 at Hucknall with the Blue Angels!!

My first air show with the museum 'off-site display' and we managed to get onto the ramp and had a tour round their Herk! :thumbs:
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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by beefsteak » Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:31 pm

I'm pretty sure that the NAM gets a mention in that programme of mine . I'll check it and get back to you.
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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by Rotörhead » Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:57 pm

I am never upset about the participation to an airshow that I attend, providing the actual event happens, aircraft fly and I get half decent shots I find no reason to be upset. I enjoy airshows for the smell, sight and sound of the aircraft.
There are a few disappointing things which I would, in an ideal world, change; for instance at RIAT this year there is Alexandra Burke (from X factor) performing which suggests that it is losing the Air show bit and replacing it with something that will appeal to people who would not normally not attend and I don't think that's a problem, as they will get more money, but I dont think it is quite how it should be. I go for the aircraft not to hear someone singing and since when does she have anything to do with military aircraft?

Also the people who get right in your way and push you back obscuring your view do nothing but annoy me, I had people stepping on my bag at bruntingthorpe and leaning on the fence which meant that their head was the only thing I could see through the camera.

Petrol prices also - I feel they have gone up way too far and they need to be lowered, a trip to Coningsby and back is at least £75, I don't have to pay for it but it has stopped me from going to some places which I would've liked to.

So theres my opinion. :)
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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by NAM Updater » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:03 am

1973 - 10p a time to get into NAM’s model display marquee, lots of rain showers and books didn’t balance due to rushes for shelter.

'Reds' bomb-burst over Blue Angels - and I got covered in dye from the smoke; how to explain that when you get home! :halo:

Comments about the zoo remind me that I ought to leave some Aviation in Notts booklets at the 'Bowman!'

Anyway back on topic - support British Air Shows, do you bit for charity and become part of the 'Big Society!' :whistle:
Howard Heeley - Newark Air Museum Trustee
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Sheff
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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by Sheff » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:05 am

Yep, returning to the subject again, I was also somewhat amused by Ms Burke's booking for RIAT. I'm sure lots of people would enjoy seeing pop singers but as you say, it has nothing to do with the purpose of the event, therefore it only serves to illustrate that the actual show content isn't sufficient. If it was, then they'd have no interest in booking a pop singer. So when they've finished crowing about how great the show still is, they have clearly contradicted this themselves. So, as I keep saying, the fundamental problem is that the show organisers are either kidding themselves, kidding us, or both. Either way we do ourselves no favours by patting them on the back and telling them what a great job they're doing. We ought to be saying that the shows are simply not going to survive if they keep following the same path. But human nature (or at least British human nature) being what it is, too many enthusiasts seem unwilling to accept how bad things already are. You just have to wonder how awful the shows will have to get before something positive finally happens.

PS- was just looking at this thread:-

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=109440

Ahh those were the days... when it was worth getting out of bed!

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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by beefsteak » Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:57 pm

OK quick answer , if possible, and I'm not 'having a go ' at any body , I'm just affording you an explanation.

Alexandra Burke is performing for free ie no charge to the RIAT charity pot, the reason she's performing is for the last few years there has always been a musical/dance stage to help entertain people dragged along by their partners /husbands/mums and especially Dads !!

To quote the lady herself

""I'm really looking forward to performing at one of the UK's biggest outdoor events this summer particularly as it is held in support the Royal Air Force Charitable Trust"

There's the car stunt show every year, I can't hear anybody moaning about that, yet there's no aviation connection. There's many many stalls with no aviation connection and that has been the case since year one !!

In my opinion if it get's a few more through the door then it's all for the better.
Jim Bowen, on "Bullseye" :- In which state of the U.S.A. is Dallas, Texas ??

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Sheff
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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by Sheff » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:08 pm

Not that this has any relevance to the quality of the air show or otherwise, I was informed that Ms Burke certainly isn't performing for free. And if it gets more people through the doors it certainly isn't improving the standard of the air show one jot. I think we've already established that the issue of raising money for charity is a separate issue and shouldn't be used as a cheap excuse to produce a poor event.

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Re: The 2011 airshow season

Post by beefsteak » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:20 pm

OK, so she's a liar, I'm a liar, and so is the press office at Douglas Bader House !! fair enough you know best as usual Sheff, we'll just leave you to organize future airshows shall we ??
With your mentality the slogan will read :-
"Come along enjoy the show, but stand outside , don't pay, so that we can't afford to pay anything that is displaying therefore leading to the cancellation of future shows, and then have the gaul to slag it off if it isn't up to your standard"
Jim Bowen, on "Bullseye" :- In which state of the U.S.A. is Dallas, Texas ??

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