China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots

[22A]

A retired senior Royal Air Force officer said: "Wow… that is appalling. What were they thinking?"

lured by annual salaries of around £240,000 suggests one answer.

[moonstone_laura]

From 'ABC NEWS - Australia':

Defence investigates 'alarming reports' RAAF pilots could be lured to work for Chinese military

Australia is following the United Kingdom by investigating whether retired defence pilots have been lured with lucrative contracts to help train the Chinese military in air warfare.

Here, Defence Minister Richard Marles has ordered his department to investigate whether any Australian military personnel may have also been enticed to work for the PLA Air Force.

In a statement, Mr Marles said he would be "deeply shocked and disturbed" if any former Australian personnel were also serving in China.

"When our ADF personnel sign up to the defence force, they do so to serve their country and we are deeply grateful of that," he said.

"I have asked the department to investigate these claims and come back to my office with clear advice on this matter."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-19/ ... /101552056

[Agent K]

We don't fly F3's anymore.

You are either incapable of grasping the risks or you are trolling for the sake of it.

Whether former RAF pilots flew an F3, a Spitfire or a Sopwith Camel, is beside the point. The tactics, the battle doctrine and a plethora of other sensitive operational disciplines are at risk. Passing on information of your country's military capabilities to the Chinese Communists, in any form and in the broadest meaning of the word, is plain treasonous.

Which side are you on?

I'm on the side of wanting to understand the facts and detail before jumping to conclusions...... Are they teaching operational and battle doctrine and tactics? I've not seen that stated as fact anywhere? there's a lot of armchair speculation but not a lot of fact..........

[Tally-ho]

What don't you understand about former RAF pilots working and being paid by the Chinese Communists? It is a very easy cut and dried, open and shut, simple to understand issue.

[Agent K]

What don't you understand about former RAF pilots working and being paid by the Chinese Communists? It is a very easy cut and dried, open and shut, simple to understand issue.

Oh, I understand very well and it's presumptuous to assume anything other. My point was made that it's good to understand fact and detail before making "they're breaking the OSA", it's treason etc etc. Of course it could be perceived as morally wrong at least and I wouldn't want to do anything to assist an enemy against my former colleagues and my country.

That said when the current governing party has taken £Millions in donations from Russia and the former PM has attended off record meetings/parties with a former KGB officer and indeed appointed his son to the House of Lords, I think the countries national security is losing focus and needs a good review and refresh.

[toom317]

We don't fly F3's anymore.

You are either incapable of grasping the risks or you are trolling for the sake of it.

Whether former RAF pilots flew an F3, a Spitfire or a Sopwith Camel, is beside the point. The tactics, the battle doctrine and a plethora of other sensitive operational disciplines are at risk. Passing on information of your country's military capabilities to the Chinese Communists, in any form and in the broadest meaning of the word, is plain treasonous.

Which side are you on?

I'm on the side of having had to go to work overseas after being in the military because of the **** state this country was in and is in. If you don't want "your" military/ ex military going overseas to earn a living, then pay them a decent wage and working and living conditions.

Alternatively, yourself, Malcolm et al could get on to your MP and the MoD and get the law changed and have them strung up for treason. Or would that be to much of an effort for you?

[cat1]

do 'loyalty' or 'sense of duty' apply in this situation?

[Malcolm]

Alternatively, yourself, Malcolm et al could get on to your MP and the MoD and get the law changed and have them strung up for treason. Or would that be to much of an effort for you?

I'm not in favor of retrospective legislation. If what they've done so far cannot be proven to be against the current laws, then Ok. If they can be proven to have broken the current OSA, then they should face the consequences.

However, going forwards from here, it needs to be made clear that persons who have knowledge of certain things deemed to be "in the national interest" will not be allowed to obtain work in certain foreign countries and companies. It's then up to the Govt of the day to decide which countries should go on the "verboten" list. It doesn't just apply to pilots, or ex-military in general. It also needs to apply to people working in the wider defence industry - the people that design and build military hardware have knowledge that shouldn't be available to competitors, never mind potential enemies.

The public can't make an informed choice here, because by their very nature the public aren't aware of what is "secret" knowledge, and what isn't.

[Tally-ho]

Agent K
I think the countries national security is losing focus and needs a good review and refresh.

toom317
... could get on to your MP ...

Agreed on both counts. My MP has heard from me on several occasions - be under no illusion!

[Vulcanone]

Tally Ho,

I assume your aware of good old Industrial espionage... a post on a certain pilots forum points to the wonders of them probably having done that for many years.... Ever wondered how the J31 looks rather like an F-22....

I believe they had hacked Lockheed Martin over 15+ years ago...

[Vulcanone]

Meanwhile the ex Arnold Glass Gnat which waa in Australia....Went to China a few years back..

And isn't it strange that working with Airbus means the C919 looks rather like .....

[TonyO]

Meanwhile the ex Arnold Glass Gnat which waa in Australia....Went to China a few years back..

And isn't it strange that working with Airbus means the C919 looks rather like .....

China does have a history of copying, but claiming that the C919 looks like an Airbus is a bit disingenuous, all airliners today look the same because that is the most efficient shape current technology allows them to be. It's a bit like claiming the Y-20 is a C-17 copy, but a high-wing, t-tailed design is the most efficient layout for an airlifter, isn't it?

[Yammer]

It's possible that some of those who have gone to China will tell UK agencies all about what they have seen and learnt while flying with the Chinese military - which side will learn the most?

[Tally-ho]

Tally Ho,

I assume your aware of good old Industrial espionage... a post on a certain pilots forum points to the wonders of them probably having done that for many years.... Ever wondered how the J31 looks rather like an F-22....

I believe they had hacked Lockheed Martin over 15+ years ago...

Industrial espionage goes both ways. However, former RAF pilots renting themselves out to a hostile nuclear military power, for whatever purpose, in this case the Chinese Communists, is treasonous. "TonyO" answered you on your second point re aircraft design.

[toom317]

Tally Ho, get off your high horse. It isn't treasonous, they haven't broken any law or the OSA, unless you know different. If you think they have committed treason, or breached the OSA, then head off down to your local police station and report the fact and get the ball rolling on having them prosecuted.

[Tally-ho]

Tally Ho, get off your high horse. It isn't treasonous, they haven't broken any law or the OSA, unless you know different. If you think they have committed treason, or breached the OSA, then head off down to your local police station and report the fact and get the ball rolling on having them prosecuted.

There we go; you know full well your defense of former RAF pilots renting themselves out to Communist China is in trouble. So you trot out the old lazy lame duck comment bordering on sarcasm. How very predictable! Not a first either!

[Vulcanone]

Tally Ho.

Maybe Tony O did point that out but then unlike some on here, he is rather better qualified. ;-)

[Vulcanone]

Yes Tony O

I was generally referring to the copy cat world, as J31 looks like a....

Tally Ho, given your expertise, I suppose Tony O could use you ? Failing that, you would make a great picture researcher

[toom317]

Tally Ho, get off your high horse. It isn't treasonous, they haven't broken any law or the OSA, unless you know different. If you think they have committed treason, or breached the OSA, then head off down to your local police station and report the fact and get the ball rolling on having them prosecuted.

There we go; you know full well your defense of former RAF pilots renting themselves out to Communist China is in trouble. So you trot out the old lazy lame duck comment bordering on sarcasm. How very predictable! Not a first either!

Sorry you've lost me.

[Vulcanone]

Toom 317

Tally Ho seems to know all the answers, Perhaps he can comment on all the other nations that may have fallen foul of the Chinese offer...

Perhaps he can write a few books on the subject....