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RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:04 pm
by Gary
More short sighted thinking by the bean counters
but been touted for a while
By George Allison - June 16, 2017
In the short term the fleet will go from 5 to 4 as the RAF are forced to cut one of the aircraft, a unique capability in Europe, in order to save money.
It is understood now that a push to extend the service of the aircraft to 2021 has been unsuccessful.
The Sentinel is an airborne battlefield and ground surveillance aircraft based on the Bombardier Global Express ultra long range business jet and serves a role similar to JSTARS with the RAF, the jet was adapted by Raytheon to meet the RAF’s requirements.
Sentinel was originally known as the ASTOR (Airborne STand-Off Radar) programme.
In 2014, Prime Minister David Cameron announced the retention of the aircraft in the face of their expected retirement due to budget cuts.
Last October, Minister for Defence Procurement, Harriett Baldwin announced a £131.5 million support contract for RAF’s Sentinel surveillance aircraft. The deal with Raytheon UK will provide the Sentinel aircraft with in-service support and maintenance, meaning it can continue to meet the RAF’s operational requirements.
With the ability to gather intelligence on enemy movements and track specific targets, the Sentinel remains a key element in the UK’s operations against Daesh in Syria and Iraq.
Minister for Defence Procurement, Harriett Baldwin said:
“Sentinel aircraft provide vital intelligence to our Armed Forces, giving them the ability to make decisions that helps keep Britain safe, including on current operations against Daesh.
As part of our £178 billion equipment plan, this contract is supported by a Defence budget that will rise every year until the end of the decade, meeting the NATO commitment to spend 2% of GDP on Defence. This new support contract will sustain 160 jobs across the UK and demonstrates the very tangible benefits which Defence is bringing to the nation’s economy.”
Despite this often touted £178 billion equipment plan, there will now be a cut in numbers and eventual scrapping of the capability.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/raf-scr ... ign=social
Re: RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:16 pm
by Thunder
What overland capability does the P8 Poseidon have or expect to have once they enter RAF service?
Re: RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:55 pm
by POL
ZJ693 was WFU in May.
Re: RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:52 pm
by page_verify
I always had the impression it was meant to be retired several years ago but some unexcepted operational requirements meant it was worth keeping to support them?
Re: RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:42 pm
by Vulcanone
So is ZJ693 stored as wfu with a view to being brought back if they change that, or is it going to be the proverbial Christmas tree?
T
Re: RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:05 am
by page_verify
Rumour is the whole fleet is going to be sold, possible to the US or a NATO partner.
Re: RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:37 am
by Supra
page_verify wrote:Rumour is the whole fleet is going to be sold, possible to the US or a NATO partner.
Would that 'Sold' be more like 'Given-away' ? Seems to be the usual Government route to bin a useful asset for negligible return & happy-slap each other on the basis of projected savings!.....Waaaaaaay before the proposed 'new toy' has even been delivered, much less proven in capability
Re: RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:50 am
by Tiger Tim
Re: RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:44 pm
by page_verify
Despite the rumours, my guess is that nothing interesting will happen to them and they'll end up on Bruntingthorpe or somewhere to rust. The US almost certainly doesn't have the money to buy them even if it wanted to (does it want to?) and the sensor and intelligence kit will be stripped out by the US and UK before they can be sold. That just leaves some old Global Express airframes with very high hours and big holes in their airframes.
Re: RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:13 pm
by filmman
As I was saying about the P8, the new MOD budget black hole, Government financial problems; and now a weakened "current Government" most likely giving more money to Ireland, and money markets down grading the UK The 2% GDP defence target might in £ terms not grow as expected, and foreign kit costs more because of a further weakened £. Unfortunately after the Queen's speech there might be further defence cuts; not just scrapping but reduced procurement particularly foreign kit. Having said that ,vanity projects like HS2 might not happen saving a fortune and sparing other budgets. Wait and see because even those "in charge" are still making it up.
Filmman
Re: RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:38 pm
by Vulcanone
And surely its capabilities are more in need now, trying to sort who is who in Syria given yesterdays events which are already having some after affects....
posting this in the Syria thread as well
https://news.usni.org/2017/06/18/navy-s ... ear-raqqah
EDIT : It has more Statements from all sides...
T
Re: RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:19 am
by ColintheCaterpillar
Vulcanone wrote:And surely its capabilities are more in need now, trying to sort who is who in Syria given yesterdays events which are already having some after affects....
posting this in the Syria thread as well
https://news.usni.org/2017/06/18/navy-s ... ear-raqqah
EDIT : It has more Statements from all sides...
T
That's the problem:
now isn't 3 or 4 years time.
Re: RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:38 pm
by Harkins
Thunder wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:16 pm
What overland capability does the P8 Poseidon have or expect to have once they enter RAF service?
I've just seen
this article on UKDJ and so it seems that the P-8 is to get overland kit. So the Sentinel is definitely a goner and the nine Poseidon will be as stretched as expected. And as I've said before, it's quite probable that there will never actually be nine in service at any time. Surely at least one will be used for parts by the time a ninth is operational.
Re: RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:18 pm
by cfett75
The APY-10 is a standard fit on all P-8A's.
It does not allow them to perform the role of Sentinel as the APY-10 is optimise for, but not tailored to perform the overland role.
The SAR-MTI radar on the Sentinels is a totally different job!
APY-10 will have no bearing on Sentinels life expectancy.
Re: RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:00 pm
by tm74sqn
The last I heard was that plans for the RAF’s Sentinel R.1 fleet are as follows:– the four currently operational aircraft are expected to remain in use until March 2021. However, the fifth aircraft (which was removed from service post-SDSR) has been retained by Raytheon at their Broughton facility and remains in a “viable” condition so, if required, could be moved back to the fleet. Thus just two and a half years before the fleet goes.
Re: RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:02 am
by Harkins
I see. I guess I read too much into the articles last line "The radar is optimized for maritime, littoral and overland surveillance." Admittedly, I can't see a date in the article but I wonder why the announcement of the APY-10 has come so much later than the aircraft itself given it is standard fit. Will the first one in service next year be sans APY-10?
So if Sentinel is to be withdrawn in 2021 and given the length of time between the announcement of the P-8 and the first one entering operational service, should there not have been a successor to Sentinel already announced? Or given our penchant for capability gaps, is it just deemed no problem to go without?
Re: RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:32 am
by Supra
So, if they're still varying the specification for the P8A at this late stage, please can we have In-flight Refuelling Probes added before delivery? The RAF welded by Contract to Airtanker Bandits don't have Boom AAR facility! (Yes..I know NATO & USAF does, but why not build-in autonomy?) Don't want another designated Maritime Patrol a/c retro-fitted with a probe facility & dodgy plumbing for the Falklands, then posted to a super-hot overland climate & blown to pieces!
Another excuse to discard a fine design due to moving the goal-posts once too often?
The Sentinel is great at what it 'probably' does, plus the only saving now in rapid retirement is operating costs. The hardware aint worth squat! Why waste essential MPA hours on the initial few P8A on overland op's?
Re: RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:18 pm
by toom317
The problem with sticking a probe on, is it makes it different from all the other P8's. I believe as part of the package, they will be maintained and modified as part of a worldwide fleet, as is done with the C17. If we start tinkering with ours, then any mods that come along, fleet wise, may not be compatible, and we'll have to fork out for all upgrade installation and testing on our own.
Re: RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:43 pm
by Supra
Soooo! I wanted somebody else to confirm that the RAF Voyagers
should've had Refuelling Booms at the outset before we got into that ridiculously restraining Airtanker Contract. Now we're stuck with grey airliners fitted with underwing pods & unable to refuel an increasing number of recent purchases/leases. Who could've ever seen this coming?
Re: RAF to scrap Sentinel surveillance aircraft due to cuts
Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:01 pm
by Seahornet1
Harkins wrote: ↑Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:02 am
I see. I guess I read too much into the articles last line "The radar is optimized for maritime, littoral and overland surveillance." Admittedly, I can't see a date in the article but I wonder why the announcement of the APY-10 has come so much later than the aircraft itself given it is standard fit. Will the first one in service next year be sans APY-10?
So if Sentinel is to be withdrawn in 2021 and given the length of time between the announcement of the P-8 and the first one entering operational service, should there not have been a successor to Sentinel already announced? Or given our penchant for capability gaps, is it just deemed no problem to go without?
It’s very easy to misunderstand a financial news item like this, when they use pseudo-technical language when referring to commercial issues. ‘Modification P00028’ is actually a change to a commercial contract, essentially to increase the number of units on order. There is no change to the technical spec of the aircraft itself, or any of its equipment.
That’s all that the news item is about, and all references to equipment capability are just so that the financial people reading it have a vague understanding of what the money is being spent on.
Oh, and the fact that this is a modification to the contract shows that there are already a good number of APY-10s on order, so none of the P-8s will be delivered 'sans-APY-10'
Hope this helps!
