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Defence Review Overview

A forum for discussing all things related to MILITARY AVIATION including Military Aviation news. No off-topic discussions here please.
f-4
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:45 pm

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by f-4 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:36 pm

Unfortunately IOC and FOC keep getting kicked into the long grass, 2023 is now the forecast date for full capability.

Vulcanone
Posts: 3532
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:56 am

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Vulcanone » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:22 pm

TonyO wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:52 am
Fighterfoto wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:10 am
You were doing so well until you asked the question about what the RAF were using to drop tac nukes these days.
Fairly sure some enthusiasts still think its the 1990s.
Are you sure Tony.... Some are still in the golden age!! If I remember rightly the RAFG Canberras were the last to carry B61. or was it the one before that.... B57 Nuke that is

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Freeman Lowell
Posts: 1298
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:00 pm
Location: Blandford Forum, occasionally

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Freeman Lowell » Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:11 pm
f-4 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:26 pm
It's a fair point on AEW though. With Crowsnest no nearer in capability and E-3 gone at the end of the year those carriers are going to be relying on 'friendly' AEW cover for quite a while.
Crowsnest Merlins have been flying from Yeovil for about a Year, and 3 have flown in the past weeks (ZH833/843/864. ZH829 hasn't been seen since it's jolly by road to Boscombe AFAIK, and ZH831 hasn't been seen for a while either). There have also been recent flights with a WHE1x type callsigns, and these tend to be aircrew training flights. I've no inside knowledge, but it wouldn't surprise me if initial delivery is imminent. Whether it'll be in time for the May far east cruise - not sure. This report from last year says they were contemplating deploying before IOC is reached.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... es-delays/

Carrier strike group coverage wouldn't normally include shore based AEW. It's Crowsnest and T45 Destroyer(s).
To support what Malcolm is suggesting:
https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/defen ... th-3165528
Looks like they may be on board for the photo-shoot if not IOC.
Freeman
It’s not what you look at that matters. It’s what you see.

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Thunder
Posts: 4989
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:24 pm

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Thunder » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:45 pm

The Type 45 'Daring' class destroyer can provide ample air surveillance and protection for the CG.

Pirty20
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:14 pm
Location: N. Notts

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Pirty20 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:53 pm

Presume they don’t use air ambulances on the battlefield and they need an army chopper.

Edit: Chinook’s speed took that one in conflict
Last edited by Pirty20 on Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

scottoz8
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:15 pm

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by scottoz8 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:33 am

Nighthawke wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:46 am
Crusty wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:45 am
Shouldnt this be Titled' Defence Cuts Overview' ?
No.
what will the difference be between the SAS and Rangers ??

scottoz8
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:15 pm

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by scottoz8 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:38 am

I wonder which Typhoon airframes will be removed. Would the ones in store,being used for spares,be included ??. It will be a tight fit to have all 7 squadrons at full strength, unless there would be a reduction in compliment. Any ideas ???

Canberra TT.18
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue May 26, 2015 9:11 pm

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Canberra TT.18 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:16 am

scottoz8 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:38 am
I wonder which Typhoon airframes will be removed. Would the ones in store,being used for spares,be included ??. It will be a tight fit to have all 7 squadrons at full strength, unless there would be a reduction in compliment. Any ideas ???
107 tranche 2&3
7×12=84
OEU 6
Falklands 4
OCU 12
Reserve 1
BAe 2?

Could be, each operational squadron only gets 10 aircraft. This would leave some operational reserve.
But it could just fit with 12 each.

Canberra TT.18
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue May 26, 2015 9:11 pm

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Canberra TT.18 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:18 am

scottoz8 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:38 am
I wonder which Typhoon airframes will be removed. Would the ones in store,being used for spares,be included ??. It will be a tight fit to have all 7 squadrons at full strength, unless there would be a reduction in compliment. Any ideas ???
107 tranche 2&3
7×12=84
OEU 6
Falklands 4
OCU 12
Reserve 1
BAe 2?

Could be, each operational squadron only gets 10 aircraft. This would leave some operational reserve.
But it could just fit with 12 each.

POL
Posts: 16717
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:26 pm

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by POL » Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:36 am

I don't think 12 per squadron is really a thing any more, with aircraft pooled across the station.

Canberra TT.18
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue May 26, 2015 9:11 pm

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Canberra TT.18 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:59 am

EGVP wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:36 am
I don't think 12 per squadron is really a thing any more, with aircraft pooled across the station.
You might be right.
Just pilots in the squadron and aircraft in 2 wings/pool(s)
Gives much more flexibility.
So you could say 7 operational squadron with (qualified) pilots.

Vulcanone
Posts: 3532
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:56 am

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Vulcanone » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:48 pm

scottoz8 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:38 am
I wonder which Typhoon airframes will be removed. Would the ones in store,being used for spares,be included ??. It will be a tight fit to have all 7 squadrons at full strength, unless there would be a reduction in compliment. Any ideas ???
Suggest you look back at what happened to the tranche 1 Two seaters. However as at least 12 of the tranche 1 single seaters did Ops during the mess that is now Libya in 2011 that might see them saved for technical training at Cosford... failing that BAE might use some for ground based trials etc

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Rhubarb
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:06 pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Rhubarb » Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:24 pm

Hi all,
Bearing in mind that Russia is believed to have at least twice the number of fighters that the RAF can put up (I'm not wanting an argument around actual figures, let's just say they can overwhelm us and the USAF in Europe by shear numbers) ! It does not matter how good the F35b and Typhoons are, if the Mig 29's keep comming they will eventually win. Dowding got his mirical in 1940 due to Hitler changing the target from Airfields to London. I dont think Putin's that stupid !
We may need every Typhoon we have, no matter its tranche (no idea what a tranche spec is. Could one of you please enlighten us that don't know !
I wish I felt more positive about our air defence position !
Cheers
"A Rhubarb" is a sortie of opportunity !

Malcolm
Posts: 4169
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:26 am

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:40 pm

Freeman Lowell wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:11 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:11 pm
f-4 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:26 pm
It's a fair point on AEW though. With Crowsnest no nearer in capability and E-3 gone at the end of the year those carriers are going to be relying on 'friendly' AEW cover for quite a while.
Crowsnest Merlins have been flying from Yeovil for about a Year, and 3 have flown in the past weeks (ZH833/843/864. ZH829 hasn't been seen since it's jolly by road to Boscombe AFAIK, and ZH831 hasn't been seen for a while either). There have also been recent flights with a WHE1x type callsigns, and these tend to be aircrew training flights. I've no inside knowledge, but it wouldn't surprise me if initial delivery is imminent. Whether it'll be in time for the May far east cruise - not sure. This report from last year says they were contemplating deploying before IOC is reached.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... es-delays/

Carrier strike group coverage wouldn't normally include shore based AEW. It's Crowsnest and T45 Destroyer(s).
To support what Malcolm is suggesting:
https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/defen ... th-3165528
Looks like they may be on board for the photo-shoot if not IOC.
Freeman
There has just been a bit on the local news (BBC Spotlight) saying 820NAS officially took their first Merlin AEW "Bagger" on charge today. Surprised it's not 849NAS but nevertheless.

Malcolm
Posts: 4169
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:26 am

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:11 pm

Rhubarb wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:24 pm
Hi all,
Bearing in mind that Russia is believed to have at least twice the number of fighters that the RAF can put up (I'm not wanting an argument around actual figures, let's just say they can overwhelm us and the USAF in Europe by shear numbers) ! It does not matter how good the F35b and Typhoons are, if the Mig 29's keep comming they will eventually win. Dowding got his mirical in 1940 due to Hitler changing the target from Airfields to London. I dont think Putin's that stupid !
We may need every Typhoon we have, no matter its tranche (no idea what a tranche spec is. Could one of you please enlighten us that don't know !
I wish I felt more positive about our air defence position !
Cheers
Depends. In the UK Mig29's aren't the problem - they don't have the range to get here. The direct worry for us is the strategic bombers - Bears and Blackjacks.

If we're talking about the states that border the "Soviet Empire", then yes the Mig29s would be a problem, but we wouldn't be fighting them on our own. If there was warning of an eastern front invasion then the whole of NATO would do whatever the planning is to defend Poland, the Baltic States, Hungary etc. If there was no warning then those states would probably be on their own until NATO sorts itself out, or the nukes start flying.

Your second point about Tranches - The Typhoons were ordered in different quantities at 3 different times - Tranche means 'slice'. The early ones are Tranche1(53 aircraft), the middle ones Tranche2(67 aircraft) and the last ones Tranche3. Originally Tranche 3 was supposed to be 80 aircraft, but the order was split then into two parts, Tranche3A(40 aircraft) and Tranche3B(40 aircraft), and Tranche 3B got cancelled. That's the jist of it - its a bit more complicated than that - better details here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon

Within each production Tranche there are several Blocks - each block having various upgrades and improvements over the previous block. Milky has a list of what tranche and block each aircraft is here : http://milky01.co.uk/?page_id=20201

So whilst all RAF Typhoons are now either T3 or FGR4, they can actually be very different internally. It's not possible to fully upgrade the Tranche1's to Tranche2 or Tranche3 spec - the structural differences are too great. Similarly the avionics fits are different between Tranches. There is supposed to be a new electronically scanned radar coming, but that can only go in the Tranche 3's (not sure about Tranche 2?)

pg1610
Posts: 2376
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:32 pm

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by pg1610 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:04 am

Forgive me but I thought the cold war ended 20 or so years ago

Why is it people still think we are in danger of being invaded by Russia

the biggest threat to the UK is from radicalised individuals hell bent on death and destruction not from other countries , and a 1000 typhoons would do nothing to protect us from this sort of attack

do we need an effective well equipped military force ? yes absolutely, do we need something to fight against an enemy that is many times the size? no. because the chance of any of that happening is so small to be negligible.

Was it not always the case that in the event of a soviet/eastern bloc attack the only way to stop it would have been a nuclear option as the west never had enough planes/tanks etc to fight a conventional war for much more than a few days in the face of underwhelming opposition forces
Phil

Alf
Posts: 1001
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:08 pm

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by Alf » Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:30 pm

pg1610 wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:04 am
Forgive me but I thought the cold war ended 20 or so years ago
Around 1991, so actually 30 years ago.

warthog81
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:51 am

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by warthog81 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:42 pm

I still think the biggest waste of money are those two aircraft carriers. I do not see why a small nation like us needs two huge carriers we can hardly equip with aircraft. I would rather we maintain the basics such as many attack subs, destroyers, frigates, combat aircraft, airlift, tankers etc. The carriers strike me as a vanity project, nice if you can afford them but in truth a total waste of money. They have also lumbered us with the F-35B rather than the superior F-35A.

I wish we could have had more Typhoons in service but at this early point the fleet will start shrinking sadly. Hard to believe how many Tornado GR4s, F-3s, Jaguars, Harriers and SHARs we used to have.

This inability to actually field combat aircraft seems an especially British problem. I believe that Italy has in service Eurofighter (Typhoon), F-35A, F-35B, Tornado, AMX and AV-8. I know Tornado, AMX and AV-8 will go eventually but they have a really impressive force.

pug
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:24 pm

Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by pug » Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:07 am

Rhubarb wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:24 pm
Hi all,
Bearing in mind that Russia is believed to have at least twice the number of fighters that the RAF can put up (I'm not wanting an argument around actual figures, let's just say they can overwhelm us and the USAF in Europe by shear numbers) ! It does not matter how good the F35b and Typhoons are, if the Mig 29's keep comming they will eventually win. Dowding got his mirical in 1940 due to Hitler changing the target from Airfields to London. I dont think Putin's that stupid !
We may need every Typhoon we have, no matter its tranche (no idea what a tranche spec is. Could one of you please enlighten us that don't know !
I wish I felt more positive about our air defence position !
Cheers
Does bring into question just what our air defence system is defending us from. As has been said already, Russia aren’t a threat in the sense of conventional warfare. Large scale conventional warfare has thankfully only happened once and is not likely to be repeated. Apart from the pissing contest with Russia testing our responses, I suspect that our air defence is there primarily to protect from 9-11 style air attacks. We therefore don’t need an airforce like we did in the 80’s.

I do wonder why we need two carriers and the F35 compliment, as we have very little overseas territory to protect - we can’t afford a US sized fleet, nor do we need one. So I question it’s value as what is purely a token presence.

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TonyO
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Location: Laandaaan, UK
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Re: Defence Review Overview

Post by TonyO » Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:52 am

pg1610 wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:04 am
Forgive me but I thought the cold war ended 20 or so years ago

Why is it people still think we are in danger of being invaded by Russia

the biggest threat to the UK is from radicalised individuals hell bent on death and destruction not from other countries , and a 1000 typhoons would do nothing to protect us from this sort of attack

do we need an effective well equipped military force ? yes absolutely, do we need something to fight against an enemy that is many times the size? no. because the chance of any of that happening is so small to be negligible.

Was it not always the case that in the event of a soviet/eastern bloc attack the only way to stop it would have been a nuclear option as the west never had enough planes/tanks etc to fight a conventional war for much more than a few days in the face of underwhelming opposition forces
We might not be invaded, but Ukraine was and if it had been a NATO member we could have gone to war with Russia based on the Article 5 obligation - an attack on one is an attack on all. Defence is not just about defending your own country if you are a NATO member, its about helping others.
You want the Aladeen news, or the Aladeen news?

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