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Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:18 am
by Condor68
I am not sure if this is the right section for this but in conversation last week I was asked if I knew why the F-35 is a Lightning 11 when we have already had 2.The P-38 (also American) and the EE Lightning.I am sure it must have been asked before my time but cant find a reference.
Keith
Re: Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:23 am
by reaper493
I think it's because it's the US designation.
They've only had the one lightning, so to them it's the 2nd - I guess to the RAF it's their 2nd lightning as well?
Looks like the RAF designation is just F-35B Lightning, no mention of '2' on the RAF site.
Mike
Re: Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:25 am
by martin condon
It's an American designed / built aircraft so the British made Lightning does not count on their system.
Cheers Martin.
Re: Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:15 am
by Doughnut
The British "reuse" aircraft names without saying 1/2. For example Typhoon is never referred to as Typhoon 2 despite the very successful WW2 Hawker Typhoon.
What has never been resolved is the type mark /suffix. Think the F-35B Lightning is the first RAF type not to have a type mark, it should really be FA1 (fighter attack) like the Sea Harrier.
Re: Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:28 am
by POL
Doughnut wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:15 am
Think the F-35B Lightning is the first RAF type not to have a type mark, it should really be FA1 (fighter attack) like the Sea Harrier.
I'd expect Lightning to have been FGR1 if anything.
It's not the first however, you've got the C-17, which we call the Globemaster III, the RC-135 Rivet Joint, etc. I'm trying to think of any non-US aircraft that didn't get a designation whilst in British service? Captured aircraft excluded of course.
Then at the other end of the scale we had the HS125 and BAE 146 which didn't get names, only designations.
Re: Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:10 pm
by seven
The two Mi-17s are an example.
Re: Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:21 pm
by raptor9
I'm sure the H.S. 125 was a Dominie in R.A.F. service, which should, therefore, have been Dominie 2 as the miltary version of the D.H Rapide of wartime era was the first to bear the name.
Re: Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:24 pm
by Nighthawke
Dominies were HS125s but not all 125s were Dominies. As already noted, several British names have been reused without a sequential number involved. That practice seems to be an "Americanism".
Re: Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:32 pm
by Mike
raptor9 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:21 pm
I'm sure the H.S. 125 was a Dominie in R.A.F. service, which should, therefore, have been Dominie 2 as the miltary version of the D.H Rapide of wartime era was the first to bear the name.
Not all HS 125s in RAF service were known as Dominies, just the 20 original red & white ones (the surviving ones were later painted in black) that were used to train navigators etc. (XS709-714, 726-739).
The RAF don't use the suffix '2' after type names, the Typhoon (as already mentioned) is a perfect example.
Re: Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:38 pm
by tommc
Very often, types which have not had to go through UK mil acceptance trials at Boscombe Down have not needed to be allocated a UK military role designation number.
Twin Star
Phantom F-4J
C-17A
RC-135W
F-35B
Of course, there are exceptions both ways.
Re: Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:21 pm
by Condor68
Thanks for the help never really gave any of the aircraft types some of you mentioned a thought re names/designations before.
Thanks again
Keith
Re: Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:54 pm
by Finty
EGVP wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:28 am
Doughnut wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:15 am
Think the F-35B Lightning is the first RAF type not to have a type mark, it should really be FA1 (fighter attack) like the Sea Harrier.
I'd expect Lightning to have been FGR1 if anything.
It's not the first however, you've got the C-17, which we call the Globemaster III, the RC-135 Rivet Joint, etc. I'm trying to think of any non-US aircraft that didn't get a designation whilst in British service? Captured aircraft excluded of course.
The RC-135 is officially named Airseeker in RAF service
Re: Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:56 am
by TonyO
Finty wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:54 pm
EGVP wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:28 am
Doughnut wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:15 am
Think the F-35B Lightning is the first RAF type not to have a type mark, it should really be FA1 (fighter attack) like the Sea Harrier.
I'd expect Lightning to have been FGR1 if anything.
It's not the first however, you've got the C-17, which we call the Globemaster III, the RC-135 Rivet Joint, etc. I'm trying to think of any non-US aircraft that didn't get a designation whilst in British service? Captured aircraft excluded of course.
The RC-135 is officially named Airseeker in RAF service
That was the programme name, but Rivet Joint is what appears on all the documents associated with the aircraft, and funnily enough on the RAF website too.
Re: Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:51 pm
by Vulture 01
The RAF did test fly the P38 Lightning during WW". For some strange reason the version tried didn't have the superchargers fitted, and was thus not a sprightly performer.
As for a name, I've heard the F35 called 'Dave' = Delayed And Very Expensive.
Not quite as bad as the names for the A&D and B52, being Short Little Ugly Fellow and Big Ugly Fat Fellow. Real acronyms modified to avoid upsetting the Woke police!
Re: Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:51 pm
by Vulture 01
Should have Written WW2....sorry.
Re: Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:55 pm
by POL
I prefer Kevin as an F-35 name. The "Sea Kevin FGR1" for example...
Re: Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:25 am
by Davef68
EGVP wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:28 am
Doughnut wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:15 am
Think the F-35B Lightning is the first RAF type not to have a type mark, it should really be FA1 (fighter attack) like the Sea Harrier.
I'd expect Lightning to have been FGR1 if anything.
It's not the first however, you've got the C-17, which we call the Globemaster III, the RC-135 Rivet Joint, etc. I'm trying to think of any non-US aircraft that didn't get a designation whilst in British service? Captured aircraft excluded of course.
QQ's Alpha Jets are the most obvious that I can think of. Not sure if 8 Flight's Agusta 109s ever received a designator either (The replacement Dauphins DO have an AH1 designation), nor 45 Squadron's King Airs.
I believe the reason the C17, RC135 and Lightning don't have UK designators is that they are operated under/within the US maintenance system for those types. The Posideon appears to be different.
Re: Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:33 am
by Davef68
Vulture 01 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:51 pm
The RAF did test fly the P38 Lightning during WW". For some strange reason the version tried didn't have the superchargers fitted, and was thus not a sprightly performer.
Not strange per se - The French ordered the version without superchargers so that the aircraft had the same engines as their Hawk 81 (P-40) order. When the RAF tried to reject the P-38 (Long before one ever reached the UK) they already had converted a large part of the order to P-38F equivalents with turbosuperchargers (Ironically designated Lightning mk II). In that respect, the reason for rejection was controversial, and Lockheed refused to accept it. Litigation was only avoided by the USAAF picking up the order. Certain Lockheed execs thought that the UK couldn't afford to pay for them, whilst there was also a thought that post-Battle of Britain, the UK had no use for them.
Re: Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:51 am
by Alf
raptor9 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:21 pm
I'm sure the H.S. 125 was a Dominie in R.A.F. service, which should, therefore, have been Dominie 2 as the miltary version of the D.H Rapide of wartime era was the first to bear the name.
Only the HS125 Nav trainers were know as Dominies, the Northolt VIP fleet were always just 125s.
Re: Lightning 1/2/?
Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:49 am
by Seahornet1
Davef68 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:33 am
Vulture 01 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:51 pm
The RAF did test fly the P38 Lightning during WW". For some strange reason the version tried didn't have the superchargers fitted, and was thus not a sprightly performer.
Not strange per se - The French ordered the version without superchargers so that the aircraft had the same engines as their Hawk 81 (P-40) order. When the RAF tried to reject the P-38 (Long before one ever reached the UK) they already had converted a large part of the order to P-38F equivalents with turbosuperchargers (Ironically designated Lightning mk II). In that respect, the reason for rejection was controversial, and Lockheed refused to accept it. Litigation was only avoided by the USAAF picking up the order. Certain Lockheed execs thought that the UK couldn't afford to pay for them, whilst there was also a thought that post-Battle of Britain, the UK had no use for them.
It wasn't just the superchargers; the 'castrated' version had both engines rotating the same direction (for the same reason of engine commonality), which did nasty things to the handling characteristics.