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Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 11:20 am
by welshandy
Very interesting article on the situation on the Russia/Ukraine Border.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59696450
Re: Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:06 pm
by steamy
I always have a wonder over to RT in times like this for some perspective... some interesting angles the Russian's are shooting from
Re: Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 3:29 pm
by 100arw
I would hate to think what NATO and the UK would do, if Russia sent the same number of aircraft around the UK daily, as what NATO and the UK send daily around Kaliningrad (Russia).
P.
Re: Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 5:32 pm
by Blackcat1
Re: Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 5:37 pm
by steamy
not til mid to late January the earliest
Re: Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:07 pm
by Blackcat1
steamy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 5:37 pm
not til mid to late January the earliest
I'll make sure I'm out then!!
Re: Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:12 pm
by HighFlyer21
100arw wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 3:29 pm
I would hate to think what NATO and the UK would do, if Russia sent the same number of aircraft around the UK daily, as what NATO and the UK send daily around Kaliningrad (Russia).
P.
Exactly. That and Crimea. Heck there was a RC135 over E Ukraine today. Utter madness.
From where I'm seeing it, NATO that are really stirring it up given that it's Russia's neck of the woods and its history with Ukraine.
Rules for thee but not for me springs to mind. Especially after we cut and ran from Afghanistan a few months ago....
Utter shambles...
Re: Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:18 am
by Sparts99
Interesting. I recently read a few books about the cold war before the fall of the USSR, politics and the military aspects in Europe. The doctrine of the USSR was always that the West wanted to invade and would strike first. Paranoia reached a peak under Andropov, who tasked the KGB with finding evidence of the West's intention to invade, so they looked hard enough until they started finding it, especially those who were career climbers in the KGB and wanted to appease the leadership. Things culminated in a huge NATO exercise (I've forgotten the name of it) which tested the US ability to reinforce Europe at short notice providing further evidence to Andropov. Andropov was head of the KGB before becoming General Secretary and had his trusted favourites, Putin was one of them.
Re: Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:45 am
by welshandy
Sparts99 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:18 am
Interesting. I recently read a few books about the cold war before the fall of the USSR, politics and the military aspects in Europe. The doctrine of the USSR was always that the West wanted to invade and would strike first. Paranoia reached a peak under Andropov, who tasked the KGB with finding evidence of the West's intention to invade, so they looked hard enough until they started finding it, especially those who were career climbers in the KGB and wanted to appease the leadership. Things culminated in a huge NATO exercise (I've forgotten the name of it) which tested the US ability to reinforce Europe at short notice providing further evidence to Andropov. Andropov was head of the KGB before becoming General Secretary and had his trusted favourites, Putin was one of them.
Believe that was "Exercise Able Archer"
Deutschland 83 is a good watch (ep7 & 8 deal with Able Archer)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutschland_83
Re: Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:39 pm
by Sparts99
Yes that's it.
Re: Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:00 pm
by Rugbyref
HighFlyer21 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:12 pm
100arw wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 3:29 pm
I would hate to think what NATO and the UK would do, if Russia sent the same number of aircraft around the UK daily, as what NATO and the UK send daily around Kaliningrad (Russia).
P.
Exactly. That and Crimea. Heck there was a RC135 over E Ukraine today. Utter madness.
From where I'm seeing it, NATO that are really stirring it up given that it's Russia's neck of the woods and its history with Ukraine.
Rules for thee but not for me springs to mind. Especially after we cut and ran from Afghanistan a few months ago....
Utter shambles...
...Except that Russia has already invaded Ukraine and stolen Crimea. Ukraine would be quite entitled to regain it by force, and yet Russia is moaning! Try asking the Estonians if they feel safe from Russia’s intentions.
Russia shot down MH17. Remind me which is the aggressor state?
Re: Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:34 pm
by HighFlyer21
Rugbyref wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:00 pm
HighFlyer21 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:12 pm
100arw wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 3:29 pm
I would hate to think what NATO and the UK would do, if Russia sent the same number of aircraft around the UK daily, as what NATO and the UK send daily around Kaliningrad (Russia).
P.
Exactly. That and Crimea. Heck there was a RC135 over E Ukraine today. Utter madness.
From where I'm seeing it, NATO that are really stirring it up given that it's Russia's neck of the woods and its history with Ukraine.
Rules for thee but not for me springs to mind. Especially after we cut and ran from Afghanistan a few months ago....
Utter shambles...
...Except that Russia has already invaded Ukraine and stolen Crimea. Ukraine would be quite entitled to regain it by force, and yet Russia is moaning! Try asking the Estonians if they feel safe from Russia’s intentions.
Russia shot down MH17. Remind me which is the aggressor state?
Yet there was a vote ans they chose to got with Russia.
Ukrianian government was overthrown by the west much like Iraq, syria, Yemen, Norty africa and venezuela.... Wonder who is behind that...?
There has been no evidence that Russia shot it down... Most likely an inside job to trigger a war. West has a lot of experiance of that.
Estonia is a small militarily weak country. Rock and glass house comes to mind.
Re: Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:50 pm
by TonyO
HighFlyer21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:34 pm
Rugbyref wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:00 pm
HighFlyer21 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:12 pm
Exactly. That and Crimea. Heck there was a RC135 over E Ukraine today. Utter madness.
From where I'm seeing it, NATO that are really stirring it up given that it's Russia's neck of the woods and its history with Ukraine.
Rules for thee but not for me springs to mind. Especially after we cut and ran from Afghanistan a few months ago....
Utter shambles...
...Except that Russia has already invaded Ukraine and stolen Crimea. Ukraine would be quite entitled to regain it by force, and yet Russia is moaning! Try asking the Estonians if they feel safe from Russia’s intentions.
Russia shot down MH17. Remind me which is the aggressor state?
Yet there was a vote ans they chose to got with Russia.
Ukrianian government was overthrown by the west much like Iraq, syria, Yemen, Norty africa and venezuela.... Wonder who is behind that...?
There has been no evidence that Russia shot it down... Most likely an inside job to trigger a war. West has a lot of experiance of that.
Estonia is a small militarily weak country. Rock and glass house comes to mind.
Oh dear, you've been listening to conspiracy theories or you are a Russian troll.
Ukraine has been trying to align with the West for several years, but Moscow doesn't like it, hence the conflict in the Donbas and now threats to invade.
MH17 was investigated by a multinational team that found it was shot down by a Buk missile from a Russian Army air defense system, a court of several Russian citizens is underway in the Netherlands with the Russians in absentia. All the alternatives have been disproven.
Re: Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:49 pm
by twocee
The Crimea was not "stolen" by Russia. It was part of Russia until "stolen" by Kruschev, himself a Ukranian, and given to the Ukraine in 1954. It has now been taken back by Russia. There would not be all this current tension were it not for the mischief being fostered in the area by the US and its NATO allies.
Re: Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:51 pm
by Rugbyref
twocee wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:49 pm
The Crimea was not "stolen" by Russia. It was part of Russia until "stolen" by Kruschev, himself a Ukranian, and given to the Ukraine in 1954. It has now been taken back by Russia. There would not be all this current tension were it not for the mischief being fostered in the area by the US and its NATO allies.
Oh dear. Believe that if you wish!
Re: Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:09 pm
by NorvilleRogers
Rugbyref wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:51 pm
twocee wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:49 pm
The Crimea was not "stolen" by Russia. It was part of Russia until "stolen" by Kruschev, himself a Ukranian, and given to the Ukraine in 1954. It has now been taken back by Russia. There would not be all this current tension were it not for the mischief being fostered in the area by the US and its NATO allies.
Oh dear. Believe that if you wish!
Wiki has it as follows (not saying its true).
On 19 February 1954, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR issued a decree on the transfer of the Crimean region of the RSFSR to the Ukrainian SSR.[42] This Supreme Soviet Decree states that this transfer was motivated by "the commonality of the economy, the proximity, and close economic and cultural relations between the Crimean region and the Ukrainian SSR".[43] At that time no vote or referendum took place, and Crimean population had no say in the transfer (also typical of other Soviet border changes).
Re: Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:44 pm
by mudcity
Never thought that Russia and its trolls would be interested in a debate on fighter control !
Re: Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:58 pm
by HighFlyer21
TonyO wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:50 pm
HighFlyer21 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:34 pm
Rugbyref wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:00 pm
...Except that Russia has already invaded Ukraine and stolen Crimea. Ukraine would be quite entitled to regain it by force, and yet Russia is moaning! Try asking the Estonians if they feel safe from Russia’s intentions.
Russia shot down MH17. Remind me which is the aggressor state?
Yet there was a vote ans they chose to got with Russia.
Ukrianian government was overthrown by the west much like Iraq, syria, Yemen, Norty africa and venezuela.... Wonder who is behind that...?
There has been no evidence that Russia shot it down... Most likely an inside job to trigger a war. West has a lot of experiance of that.
Estonia is a small militarily weak country. Rock and glass house comes to mind.
Oh dear, you've been listening to conspiracy theories or you are a Russian troll.
Ukraine has been trying to align with the West for several years, but Moscow doesn't like it, hence the conflict in the Donbas and now threats to invade.
MH17 was investigated by a multinational team that found it was shot down by a Buk missile from a Russian Army air defense system, a court of several Russian citizens is underway in the Netherlands with the Russians in absentia. All the alternatives have been disproven.
Imagine having a different perspective or not auto believing what the western MSN spouts given what we have gone through over the past two years at least only to be called a "Russian Troll"...
I mean do grow up. I'm not going to lap up everything the BBC or Daily Mail says. People like you might. I like to see things from both side of the coin.
MH17 was shot down by a BUK missile which the Ukranians also had. The Multinational team investigaing it were all pro western / NATO countries. Think it's obvious what the out come will be...
Re: Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:03 pm
by Alf
mudcity wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 5:44 pm
Never thought that Russia and its trolls would be interested in a debate on fighter control !
The above wiki quote is there for all to read, does that make them a troll by putting it on here? Maybe your paranoia is getting the better of you.. get a grip comrade (oh damn given it away now)!!
Re: Russia Ukraine: Moscow lists demands for defusing Ukraine tensions
Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:05 pm
by phantomrob
looking through history . Has Russia ever invaded any where ?????
they only seem to defend there-self against the west and invaders.
