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Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

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Ghastly Whisper
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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by Ghastly Whisper » Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:14 pm

I could construct a scenario whereby a normal Coronet deployment was used to disguise the dragging of one or two extra 'friends' across the Atlantic who might drop out of the formation over Scotland and go to an out of the way location where they wouldn't be seen. Now normally A-10's fly slow and low, so you wouldn't try to sneak a fast/high flying thing in like that, but since we don't know what the UFO was we don't know its flight characteristics.
Fast/high flying toys can also fly low and slow, being dragged across with a tanker saves a lot of effort in navigation, radio calls etc etc. I'm sure A-10s can also fly high!
...........................................................

The original story with the Harrier is complete and utter tripe, more like it had a recce pod on or something and took a photo of something somebody thought was hidden that turned out not to be hidden! Hence the movement of photos over the pond. The story got told too much over to many beers in too many messes and bobs your uncle I flew alongside a ufo!

Funny thing about Macrihanish its a big black hole of nothingness! but a lot of things happened up that way :ninja:
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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by Canberra TT.18 » Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:26 pm

Haven't the LV coded A-7s of the 4450 TG/4451 TS been deployed to the UK at the end of the 80s.
The unit was disbanded in 1989. When active it was direct related to the F-117 development.
The A-7s flew cover missions for the Nighthawks or were a cover up for deployments and flights.
So other fighters flying along/with something spooky was not uncommon.

I believe very much that after the F-117s were officially revealed the USA(F) was already developing the next step. But being 32 years ago one might think something new then would be revealed by now.
But it seems we have to wait for another 50 years....

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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by tim_3216 » Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:40 pm

LV A-7Ds to Woodbridge was Coronet Spark in October 1984. Unusual-ish because only 4 aircraft deployed.
covered here viewtopic.php?f=317&t=210662
and here http://www.sharpshooter-maj.com/html/deploy84.htm
There was an interesting article on the Key Aero website I linked to in that thread, but it seems to be behind a paywall now.
All very interesting indeed, especially Malcolm's comments about Coronet Gun in 1990. :unsure:
Last edited by tim_3216 on Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Davef68
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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by Davef68 » Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:40 pm

Macrahannish also had a regular Loganair flight, There was often rumours about secret aircraft (Captured Mil 24 was one for a while) but no-one ever saw anything. I suspect most is down to the security of the special weapons that were stored there.

On the other hand, not too far away, West Freugh WAS an airfield where security was high. No where for spotting, and even if you slowed down too much you got hassle from the security.

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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by Mark » Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:04 pm

I'll have to carefully broach the subject at the Stranraer bowling club next time I'm up seeing my Dad. I know there's a few ex-Freugh employees that drink there...
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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by 100arw » Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:30 pm

Davef68 wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:40 pm
but no-one ever saw anything
Maybe down to enthusiasts who caught aircraft on scanners saying "Macrahanish next" and went there, thinking it was the aircraft's next destination, not aircraft's next oceanic reporting point :-)

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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by David Vincent » Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:13 am

Having seen the artist's impression of the alleged incident my immediate thought was that the likely explanation would be an F-117 in a banked turn being followed by an A-7 with the F-117 being nearer the position of the witness and perspective and excitement turned the sighting into a UFO event. The A-7 and F-117 were both operated by the 4450th Tactical Group, the A-7 being the cover story for the existence of the 4450th at Tonopah and to maintain pilot currency when not flying the F-117. The 4450th deployed A-7s to RAF Bentwaters and RAF Woodbridge on a couple of occasions in the 1980s and from a distance the A-7 and Harrier look very, very similar.
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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by AyrForce1 » Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:57 am

David Vincent wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:13 am
perspective and excitement turned the sighting into a UFO event.
With a name like David Vincent I'd expect you to be pushing alien invasion theories. :P

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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by TS010 » Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:37 am

We had MC-130's operating out of Binbrook in the early 80's, nightflying with the airfield in total darkness. It was reported at the time that unidentified jet aircraft were also seen overshooting the airfield, again in total darkness.
4450th A-7's with F-117's in tow?🤷‍♂️

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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by cat1 » Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:55 am

I hate to break it to the OP, but someone has to i think....
if you didn't want to be absolutely smashed by very down to earth people (e.g. FC members) then you came to the wrong place.
I learnt this myself when I posted a topic like this ages ago.
tip: don't be so dismissive of the F117 because if we turn out to be right, your going to feel a bit stupid :Oops:


just saying :P

(I'm already putting on my coat to lessen the backlash :'( :lol: )
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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by page_verify » Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:50 pm

UFO investigators often get 'absolutely smashed down to earth' because they won't accept the plausible explanations they're given and go on to scrape the bottom of the barrel for reasons to reject them.

For example, the F-117 may well have been announced to the public in 1988 but there will have been a very long list of reasons why the UK and US wanted to hide and deny it was in Scotland during 1990.

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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by sschofield » Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 4:11 pm
First of all, I don't believe a word of it. What fool would fly a still secret stealth aircraft up a valley close to the A9, on a Saturday, in daylight? That risked been seen by thousands of car drivers. RAF/RN Harriers weren't based in Scotland, and even if they were visiting Leuchars/Lossie they wouldn't have been tasked to intercept an unknown - unless they just happened to be in the area. But on a Saturday? And to be tasked by ATC would mean ATC was aware of the UFO, which means it was visible on radar - would have thought a QRA launch from Leuchars was more likely in that case. RAF Harriers never had an air to air radar, so finding a UFO would have to be done by eye. RN Sea Harriers did have a radar, but the FRS1 wasn't very good against low fliers, and the FA2 didn't come in till 1993.

However, one thing that always raised questions in my mind was Coronet Gun. This was the deployment of 12 A-10's of the 75TFS/23TFW to Sculthorpe on Friday Aug 3rd 1990. This was after the invasion of Kuwait, but before the major build up of US forces had started. I think most of us expected these aircraft to continue on down to the sand pit during/after the deployment. But no, they went home to the USA on 27th Aug. Also strange was that most TAC deployments lasted 4 weeks, but this one only lasted 3. 23TFW had 'hosted' the F-117's after the Panama raids in June 1990 - the first known operating of the type outside Nevada.
http://www.f-117a.com/Englandafb90.html

As it happens I was driving up to a wedding in Scotland (Thurso) on Aug 3rd, via Leeming, Lossie and Kinloss as you do, obviously :P. Memory is it was scorchio in England, but started to rain as I approached Hadrians wall. I don't think I went to Leuchars (too far out of the way), and I don't remember seeing any Harriers at Lossie or Kinloss. Anyway, Somewhere close to Edinburgh the radio bust into life as the two cells of A-10's and their tankers passed overhead - in the cloud. I can't remember if we knew they were coming at the time or not - I think we did but since I had to be in John-O-Groats the next day not much I could do to be there.

So if I were into conspiracy theories, I could construct a scenario whereby a normal Coronet deployment was used to disguise the dragging of one or two extra 'friends' across the Atlantic who might drop out of the formation over Scotland and go to an out of the way location where they wouldn't be seen. Now normally A-10's fly slow and low, so you wouldn't try to sneak a fast/high flying thing in like that, but since we don't know what the UFO was we don't know its flight characteristics.

Do I believe any of that? Nope. But if I were writing a spy thriller it's a bit more convincing than most other scenarios. Hang on there is a black van outside with men in dark sun glasses getting out....
Malcolm,

Some really interesting points in your post. Harriers involved in any kind of search for UFOs just doesn't make sense. If it WAS a true QRA then that would have fallen to the Phantoms at Leuchars or Lossie (can't recall what was where back then), especially since to the best of my knowledge there have NEVER been any kind of Harriers based in Scotland? That's not to say there may not have been a deployment, btu even that doesn't explain the Harrier being there?

Very interesting point about Coronet Gun, which apparently followed Coronet Lariat at Sculthorpe by just a week. Of course it's possible that as it would have been pre-planned months in advance, they decided to go ahead with it anyway despite the build-up futher East? Or maybe it was decided that they could always redeploy to the sandpit if required. Or possibly something else entirely!

As regards other comments, especially about Machrihanish, I think it has long been conected with "Black Jet" lore, rightly or wrongly. The perception is that it is a barren, remote outpost unseen by anybody, whereas in reality that's not the case at all. Sure, it's a little off the beaten track, but not THAT much (as the crow flies it's only about 60 miles from Glasgow, although the drive is more than double that!), and it has Campbeltown right at the Eastern end of the runway, which has a population of several thousand people.

If the "Aurora" (as it was called back then, before we found out that name related to early B-2 funding), or any other hypersonic black jet was operating from there, plenty of people locally would have known about it. I was lucky enough to see the SR-71 fly before it was retired, and when that sort of jet blasts off in full afterburner, there is literally nothing that can decribe the noise!

"Secret" bases invite conspiracy theories, most of which are nonsense. Here's another one, which I recall "Aircraft Illustrated" misguidedly picked up and ran with back in the day...

https://www.dreamlandresort.com/trip_re ... p_020.html

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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by sschofield » Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:42 pm

tim_3216 wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:40 pm
LV A-7Ds to Woodbridge was Coronet Spark in October 1984. Unusual-ish because only 4 aircraft deployed.
covered here viewtopic.php?f=317&t=210662
and here http://www.sharpshooter-maj.com/html/deploy84.htm
There was an interesting article on the Key Aero website I linked to in that thread, but it seems to be behind a paywall now.
All very interesting indeed, especially Malcolm's comments about Coronet Gun in 1990. :unsure:
6 "LV" Corsairs also deployed to Woodbridge in May 1986 on an unknown deployment name, ostensibly to do some trials work with Maverick missiles on the based A-10s, but quite possibly for something a bit more interesting!

http://www.sharpshooter-maj.com/html/deploy86.htm

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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:37 pm

sschofield wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:37 pm
As regards other comments, especially about Machrihanish, I think it has long been conected with "Black Jet" lore, rightly or wrongly. The perception is that it is a barren, remote outpost unseen by anybody, whereas in reality that's not the case at all. Sure, it's a little off the beaten track, but not THAT much (as the crow flies it's only about 60 miles from Glasgow, although the drive is more than double that!), and it has Campbeltown right at the Eastern end of the runway, which has a population of several thousand people.
Yeah, but what on earth :P is a "hypersonic black jet" doing hovering/flying low level near the A9? I mean, we had SR-71's based in the UK for over a decade, but I don't remember them being reported doing the Mach Loop or using the Scottish LFA's. They'd be up at FL600+ doing Mach 3 well out of sight, only coming down to land or possibly refuel from tanker.

Also the location is quoted as Calvine in Perthshire. That's here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Cal ... d-3.966186

So even if it were operating out of a remote airbase, what is the point of going that close to the only main road in the area. Harriers, Jags, Tonkas, F-111's I get. Secret black jets though :S

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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by sschofield » Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:37 pm
sschofield wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:37 pm
As regards other comments, especially about Machrihanish, I think it has long been conected with "Black Jet" lore, rightly or wrongly. The perception is that it is a barren, remote outpost unseen by anybody, whereas in reality that's not the case at all. Sure, it's a little off the beaten track, but not THAT much (as the crow flies it's only about 60 miles from Glasgow, although the drive is more than double that!), and it has Campbeltown right at the Eastern end of the runway, which has a population of several thousand people.
Yeah, but what on earth :P is a "hypersonic black jet" doing hovering/flying low level near the A9? I mean, we had SR-71's based in the UK for over a decade, but I don't remember them being reported doing the Mach Loop or using the Scottish LFA's. They'd be up at FL600+ doing Mach 3 well out of sight, only coming down to land or possibly refuel from tanker.

Also the location is quoted as Calvine in Perthshire. That's here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Cal ... d-3.966186

So even if it were operating out of a remote airbase, what is the point of going that close to the only main road in the area. Harriers, Jags, Tonkas, F-111's I get. Secret black jets though :S
Hadn't picked up on the precise location. That just adds fuel to the fire that it didn't happen!

As an aside, an SR-71 through the Mach loop would have been spectacular to see! Preferably giving it some "beans"! :thumbs:

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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by tim_3216 » Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:03 am

sschofield wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:42 pm
tim_3216 wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:40 pm
LV A-7Ds to Woodbridge was Coronet Spark in October 1984. Unusual-ish because only 4 aircraft deployed.
covered here viewtopic.php?f=317&t=210662
and here http://www.sharpshooter-maj.com/html/deploy84.htm
There was an interesting article on the Key Aero website I linked to in that thread, but it seems to be behind a paywall now.
All very interesting indeed, especially Malcolm's comments about Coronet Gun in 1990. :unsure:
6 "LV" Corsairs also deployed to Woodbridge in May 1986 on an unknown deployment name, ostensibly to do some trials work with Maverick missiles on the based A-10s, but quite possibly for something a bit more interesting!

http://www.sharpshooter-maj.com/html/deploy86.htm
Well spotted Stuart. It does seem as though the A-7s deploying to the UK was for crew training. It is probably correct to assume that Woodbridge was the F-117's 'war' base in the European theatre, with the A-10s forward deployed to Germany in such situations. Large base with lots of HAS unlike other coronet bases such as Sculthorpe which were far more austere.
The Maverick missile was hardly new in the mid 80s, so I suspect that was just a cover story for the A-7's presence. There's interesting articles around online about the fake weapons pods carried by the A-7s to further embellish the cover stories around the 4450th TG's activities.
Lots of online forums have old threads mentioning F-117s in the UK before being publicly revealed. Alconbury, Binbrook and Lakenheath all part of the folklore. There's no actual evidence at all, but some limited deployment is plausible for an operational black project. I do wonder whether the initial 'black triangle' 'TR3B' UFO sightings are rooted in the F-117 project being out in the wild earlier than officially acknowledged.
All fascinating stuff, but we'll never know the full truth. :ninja:
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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by Gordyflyer » Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:32 am

The Binbrook story actually came from a Lightning pilot! Some of them used to visit the spotters at crash gate 3 occasionally, and one once said "did any of you see the stealth last night?"
Grimsby - don't bother going there as the road network is designed by an idiot with a traffic light fetish!

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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by sschofield » Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:58 am

tim_3216 wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:03 am
sschofield wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:42 pm
tim_3216 wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:40 pm
LV A-7Ds to Woodbridge was Coronet Spark in October 1984. Unusual-ish because only 4 aircraft deployed.
covered here viewtopic.php?f=317&t=210662
and here http://www.sharpshooter-maj.com/html/deploy84.htm
There was an interesting article on the Key Aero website I linked to in that thread, but it seems to be behind a paywall now.
All very interesting indeed, especially Malcolm's comments about Coronet Gun in 1990. :unsure:
6 "LV" Corsairs also deployed to Woodbridge in May 1986 on an unknown deployment name, ostensibly to do some trials work with Maverick missiles on the based A-10s, but quite possibly for something a bit more interesting!

http://www.sharpshooter-maj.com/html/deploy86.htm
Well spotted Stuart. It does seem as though the A-7s deploying to the UK was for crew training. It is probably correct to assume that Woodbridge was the F-117's 'war' base in the European theatre, with the A-10s forward deployed to Germany in such situations. Large base with lots of HAS unlike other coronet bases such as Sculthorpe which were far more austere.
The Maverick missile was hardly new in the mid 80s, so I suspect that was just a cover story for the A-7's presence. There's interesting articles around online about the fake weapons pods carried by the A-7s to further embellish the cover stories around the 4450th TG's activities.
Lots of online forums have old threads mentioning F-117s in the UK before being publicly revealed. Alconbury, Binbrook and Lakenheath all part of the folklore. There's no actual evidence at all, but some limited deployment is plausible for an operational black project. I do wonder whether the initial 'black triangle' 'TR3B' UFO sightings are rooted in the F-117 project being out in the wild earlier than officially acknowledged.
All fascinating stuff, but we'll never know the full truth. :ninja:
It's certainly food for thought, and I tend to agree that the truth about these things is unlikely to come out in our lifetimes, if ever. There's another possible explanation, in that Woodbridge was rumoured to be a site that stored "secret", "special" (nuclear) weapons, supposedly for use by US-based F-16s if things ever kicked off in Europe. I think the idea was that the based A-10s would forward deploy to their Forward Operating Locations (FOLs) such as Norvenich, Leck and others, which then left Woodbridge (and possibly Bentwaters too, not too sure?) free to receive deployed F-16s. That might explain the 12 F-16s from Nellis that deployed to Woodbridge in June 1984 for "Coronet Raider", and then again 12 more for "Coronet Crusader" the following year, again from Nellis (it's not unbelievable that the Nellis squadrons might have been involved in formulating tactics for using such weapons?). Again, we will probably never know!

Just for clarity, I don't for one minute believe that the USAF secretly stored tactical nucelar weapons at Woodbridge or Bentwaters. I DO believe that they refused to confirm or deny the existence of such weapons, since that smacks of deterrence to me!

I was at college when the F-117A story broke, I think it was Aviation Week that first published the single grainy photo in what I guess would have been 1988 or possibly 1989, and then a whole new set of conspiracy theories evolved from there!

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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by Vulture 01 » Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:07 pm

RAF aircrew are renowned for having, at times, a skewed sense of humour. 'Did you see the stealth' might just have been a wind up.....

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Re: Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Post by tim_3216 » Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:52 pm

I'm drifting this off topic but it's an interesting subject so I'll carry on. Certainly more interesting to us aviation bods on here I would say.
Digging around the Coronet website also shows the 474TFW Nellis F-16s to Bentwaters as Coronet Wrangler in April 82. So yes, with three deployments in 4 years I agree it was likely their European FOL, with 'special' weapons probably stored there too. It's quite possible that both the Nellis F-16s and the F-117s would have deployed to Woodbridge and Bentwaters in a European war situation, with the resident A-10s from both forward deployed at the German FOLs.
We could go full circle back to the original UFO subject, bringing in the 'Rendlesham' Woodbridge link. That's another far fetched story that's become UFO folklore, but may have some back-story connected with the above noted storage of 'special' weapons and twitchy USAF security police.
As for the Binbrook rumour being started by a Lightning pilot talking to spotters - that has to be a wind up, which clearly worked!
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