UK Should Reconsider C-130J Retirement

[wessexspotter]

Its funny how people moaned about the Harrier and Nimrod and capability gaps yet we got away with it. A 10 year+ lack of fixed wing naval aviation or MPA didn't cause us any problems.

Although I will miss the sight of the Hercules its evident the Atlas can do most of what it can do and then some in terms of unrefuelled range etc. And if there is a specific tasking I guess we could always ask the cousins at Mildenhall to lend us one.

[gnirtS]

"Getting away with it" is great until the one time you don't.

We can get away with having no armed forces most of the time.

The other problem with capability gaps is when they eventually try to fill then the criteria get changed and what is most never actually gets truly replaced. It gets watered down over time.

[wessexspotter]

There's hasn't been a conflict we've been involved with since the Falklands where its been necessary to have fixed-wing naval aviation present. Sure the French used their carrier during the Libyan intervention but we managed just fine flying sorties from Italy with tanker support. No call for it in the various Gulf Wars, Afghanistan, Syria etc. As for us sending a carrier to the Baltic, well other than messaging it serves no real military purpose, in fact probably causes us more headaches in terms of force protection, logistics etc.

I agree MPA is somewhat different but luckily for us the P-8 came into service at just the right time, as a resurgent Russia began to flex its nautical muscles.

[Drinkmat]

He is right but the MOD never were any good at making the right decisions
F35Bs ,Retiring the Harriers , to name but only two
Bean counters do not care if it makes sense just as long as they on paper justify there jobs.

It's a typical throwaway internet line, but the MOD procured the C-130 in the first place, so must have made at least one good decision.

[Agent K]

He is right but the MOD never were any good at making the right decisions
F35Bs ,Retiring the Harriers , to name but only two
Bean counters do not care if it makes sense just as long as they on paper justify there jobs.

It's a typical throwaway internet line, but the MOD procured the C-130 in the first place, so must have made at least one good decision.

Indeed @Drinkmat and ill informed too, the Harrier canx and Nimrod canx were of the cameron conservative government austerity doing not the MoD. Whilst the MoD have managed some programmes poorly financially and timeline wise, a lot of the issues stem from poor governmental leadership.

[Yammer]

I hope that we will order maybe 5 or 6 new build C-130J for use primarily by the UKSF - getting special people to special places in difficult circumstances.

Some good insight into the recent Luftwaffe Hercules kit and role on the link below ( ie A400 doesn't fulfil all options ).

https://theaviationist.com/2021/11/10/f ... an-c-130j/

Our armed forces are certainly stretched threadbare.

[Cyberfox]

‘We need to reconsider the F35 and the C-130’ said ex MoD Government Minister Tobias Elwood on todays World at One on Radio 4 when discussing the request to ramp up military spending.

Indeed, but I bet they don’t. We’ll just rely on the Americans as usual.

Would be good if the RAF bought more transports and a few squadrons of off the shelf F/A-18s or F-16s, but that definitely won’t happen despite Boris’s bluster about increasing spending.

Why???? Why on earth would you buy OTS F16/18’s with all the extra costs for running a new fleet when you can get newer and more capable Typhoon or F35 aircraft.

I’d assumed because they’d be cheaper than F-35s, and the US still uses plenty of both, including in Europe with F-16s, so they must still be capable and viable. Certainly I’d imagine six squadrons of fourth gen jets is more of a deterrent than one of F-35s, isn’t it? And by sheer numbers it means we can defend our airspace while still having numbers to deploy to Scandinavia or anywhere else required.

Having about 15 squadrons of jets in RAF Germany worked as a deterrent, yet the tiny Air Force we have now obviously didn’t concern Russia at all or deter them from aggression. Strength in numbers and all that.

[Vulcanone]

A post over on the other forum links to a twitter page reference to a House of Commons meeting last week.
It seems to be pointing to the retirement being put on hold

[Doughnut]

A post over on the other forum links to a twitter page reference to a House of Commons meeting last week.
It seems to be pointing to the retirement being put on hold

Putting retirement "on hold" just adds to the problems. Where does the MOD get the funds for short term maintenance ? Can they order spare parts ? What is the fuel budget ? Aircrew need a long term training plan.
Think all agree the C-130J should have a future within the RAF but reducing the fleet and short term extension is not the answer. Somebody messed up by retiring / selling off what were considered surplus C-130J.

[Evergreen 44]

Not that it will happen, but the brave and long-tem choice would be new-builds. Around 12-14 would be ideal/affordable over the long-term with some configured for SF. Our out-going fleet have had a lot of hard work over the last 20+ years and achieved enormous success but replacement rather than continuous upgrades must be the simpler and more prudent use of limited funds.
Recent events have demonstrated that continually reducing resources to bare minimum limits options for use and new/extra capacity is rarely available quickly enough in the time scale of the crisis without having to rely on our valuable Commonwealth or American cousins to help-out.
Take a few hard-pressed A400's out of the line to support SF operatons and day-to-day operations are affected - Plus A400''s will not have access to some of the smaller SF 'venues' ( I.e. shorter strips) which the Herk.'s can use. Bear in mind we still do not have full fleet compliment of RAF A.400's yet - although I am not sure if that is us dragging out deliveries or Airbus not resolving production issues. Once another A400 fleet problem occurs ( like the A400 gearbox and time taken to rectify ) we could be left without transport capacity overnight going cap in hand to a friendly Herk operator to assist us.

[wessexspotter]

Not that it will happen, but the brave and long-tem choice would be new-builds.

Well that depends on whatever requirement UKSF etc come up with, assuming they have one. For all we know they may have said that the Hercs no longer meets their needs?

If there is a need for something with short field performance then maybe the likes of Osprey or Valor/Defiant could be in with a shout?

[wessexspotter]

Whilst the MoD have managed some programmes poorly financially and timeline wise, a lot of the issues stem from poor governmental leadership.

Not really - if anyone's to blame its those goddamned bankers, screwing things up like that.

The hard truth then and now is that the governments of the day have some pretty severe fiscal constraints to contend with, and tough - and unpopular - choices have to be made. On the upside it does give some the opportunity to dump on the A400...

[Agent K]

I’d assumed because they’d be cheaper than F-35s, and the US still uses plenty of both, including in Europe with F-16s, so they must still be capable and viable. Certainly I’d imagine six squadrons of fourth gen jets is more of a deterrent than one of F-35s, isn’t it? And by sheer numbers it means we can defend our airspace while still having numbers to deploy to Scandinavia or anywhere else required.

Having about 15 squadrons of jets in RAF Germany worked as a deterrent, yet the tiny Air Force we have now obviously didn’t concern Russia at all or deter them from aggression. Strength in numbers and all that.

They would be cheaper to procure, but adding a completely new aircraft type introduces a whole new line of support and logistics cost that will eat up a fair bit of any saving. This includes pilot equipment, pilot training, new maintenance lines for airframe and avionics and propulsion etc etc and maintenance personnel training and then all operational equipment such as even tow bars and intake blanks and a whole load of stuff. Like when you buy a printer, it's cheap, to get you to buy it these days, but you pay tens if not hundreds more on ink during it's lifetime, and for an F16 procurement that is a whole new budget line.

I suspect there'd be little difference in total cost of ownership for lifetime between procuring an F16 fleet or adding to the Typhoon fleet (a comparable aircraft re capabilities).

Agreed higher numbers not only provide an amount of deterrent, but also allow the RAF to meet it's commitments now and in the future without the current overstretch.

[Buccs2b]

More food for thought on a potential deferment decision for the RAFs C-130Js, the Voyager is now reported as training/qualifying to refuel them.

Reported here:
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/voyager ... -hercules/

[jamesg23]

More food for thought on a potential deferment decision for the RAFs C-130Js, the Voyager is now reported as training/qualifying to refuel them.

Reported here:
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/voyager ... -hercules/

they have been refuelling RAF C130s for months. often seen them head out over the wash together. mainly on Thursday nights i have noticed.

[Vulcanone]

It's has been doing that for quite a number of years.

They have been out in several ARA areas since before Lockdown 1 regularly

[Off Airways]

Like the Harrier and ...

Hmmm, spent many hours in tanking racetracks off the Libyian coast in the Spring of 2011 wishing like many that we'd got a Harrier force on a carrier - sadly we had neither and both were needed!

... having operated on the C-130K/J for thirteen years there very DEFINATELY is a gap in the RAF "Airlift" role. To lose the "J" would be a HUGE backward step and "SF" need the 130 and that is unqestionable, sadly the "Coal face" are never involved.

[Rob666]

What moron makes these decisions, while other airforces get the Hercules we are getting rid, a complete and utter mistake!

What do you replace a ageing Hercules with another Hercules, not sure anything will replace such a dependable workhorse. Mistake getting the A400, should of got more C17's and extra Herc's.

Rob

[Kurnass]

I wouldn’t consider the A400M a mistake, it fits perfect in between the C-130 and the C-17.
Getting rid of the C-130 however, that is a mistake. When your smallest air cargo asset is an A400M, something’s wrong. Even Germany realized that. After the decision of retiring the C-160, they bought the Hercules.

[Sparts99]

I'm not sure how the C-130, A400 and C-17 roles dovetail, can someone explain please? It appears to me that there's quite a lot of overlap between the A400 and C-17, but virtually none with the C-130 and A400, am I wrong?