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Information help from members

A forum for discussing all things related to MILITARY AVIATION including Military Aviation news. No off-topic discussions here please.
Raptor22
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Information help from members

Post by Raptor22 » Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:44 am

Ok im sorry if this is in the wrong place i dont know where else to post pleade remove this if content is not allowed so ive been reading many posts from members and to be honest if it wasnt for these helpful guys or girls i would miss loads of stuff firstly the Raptors i managed to get the second lot thats just an example what is really upsetting and saddens me is people are trying to help with information about lots of things but im not saying who but these people are being moaned at told shouldn't have said this or that or its top secret its like a clicky club only we are allowed to know just this week 2 guys have stated they will no longer post information thats really sad cause ive had lots brilliant info now lost it seems more and more people are just wanting to argue or moan about stuff if it keeps on then its going to be no information about anything because of a group of people who don't like certain things said especially about certain base i forone thank every person who tries to help others who are not in the know of things yet again a small amount ruining it for others sorry i just had to say this

Supra
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Re: Information help from members

Post by Supra » Sun Jul 31, 2022 8:13 pm

FWIW I totally agree with you. As noted elsewhere on the Forum there is praise for those 'in the know' who feel able to provide 'heads-up' notice of movements that do not compromise operational security (OPSEC). Such Members should be thanked for sharing that useful Info' & not criticised by others who don't understand the tempo of the noted movements. There has always been those in the "I know what you Don't" camp who relish the superior feeling that with-holding information of no strategic value is their role in life. Either way it is their assumed prerogative to retain that information & no amount of complaining can alter that. I would like to offer my thanks to any Member that takes the time & effort to post realistic (NOT conjecture!) advanced info' to those living far away from an active airfield. You guys know who you are. :thumb:

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cat1
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Re: Information help from members

Post by cat1 » Sun Jul 31, 2022 8:49 pm

Absolutely spot on there, I would like to put on record my thanks to those who provide the info thoughout deployments. Also thanks to the fast pace nature of fighter control, much withheld info soon becomes obsolete! :D



P.S
Could i just request a few commas and full stops please? To be frank however, I cant talk about a lack of correct english myself! :Wow: (sorry mike :( )
Cheap cameras aren't good. Good cameras aren't cheap

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roughcutter
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Re: Information help from members

Post by roughcutter » Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:33 am

Without taking sides on this matter, I don't necessarily agree with the motives of those who withhold, or at the most "ration" out their info to a selected few. But can to some degree empathise with them. As I've mentioned in a previous thread, the internet has immensely helped the followers of this wonderful hobby, but has also in many ways, become a hinderance too.The World is a smaller place now. These days of fewer aircraft types, squadrons and airbases, there is nothing more frustrating than arriving at a venue after a very long journey, in anticipation of an interesting deployment. Only to be greeted by huge crowds of people/enthusiasts with stepladders and nowhere to park up, it does deflate your enthusiasm somewhat.
Last edited by roughcutter on Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thor
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Re: Information help from members

Post by Thor » Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:03 pm

Raptor22, pretty much all moves in & out of bases, especially for deployments, are close-hold information unless published officially (e.g. Reds/BBMF NOTAM, etc.) which is why flying schedules for mil bases aren't published. People with access to this information run risks to one degree or another when they make it available to people outside the official 'need to know' audience (i.e.passing it on to spotters/enthusiasts, etc.) and therefore are somewhat guarded in who they disclose it to. Not everyone is comfortable with information they've been privy to or have disclosed to people they trust being splashed across the internet with the potential for traceback to them as source. I know of at least 2 examples where information got out to the internet and RAFP/other agencies investigated and questioned people around it (Newark's Viggen into Cranwell, IAF B707 into Waddington) and on at least one of those occasions the person disclosing the information was subjected to sanctions in their role. So whilst people do still disclose non-public information that you desire to be told, it's entirely understandable that those with the information are usually extremely careful who they tell, particularly around operational deployments. It's all about circles of trust, limiting personal risk/consequences, and dare I say it, protecting your friends/sources. It's most likely nothing at all personal to you, just that you've probably not developed the friendships/reputation around those who are privy to the information you seek. That's in no way elitist or cliquey, just a bald fact of how the world works - until you're taken into the trust of someone who has good gen, you're unlikely to get it.

raameagle
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Re: Information help from members

Post by raameagle » Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:12 pm

Well said Thor, and with lots of punctuation too :clap:
Thor wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:03 pm
Raptor22, pretty much all moves in & out of bases, especially for deployments, are close-hold information unless published officially (e.g. Reds/BBMF NOTAM, etc.) which is why flying schedules for mil bases aren't published. People with access to this information run risks to one degree or another when they make it available to people outside the official 'need to know' audience (i.e.passing it on to spotters/enthusiasts, etc.) and therefore are somewhat guarded in who they disclose it to. Not everyone is comfortable with information they've been privy to or have disclosed to people they trust being splashed across the internet with the potential for traceback to them as source. I know of at least 2 examples where information got out to the internet and RAFP/other agencies investigated and questioned people around it (Newark's Viggen into Cranwell, IAF B707 into Waddington) and on at least one of those occasions the person disclosing the information was subjected to sanctions in their role. So whilst people do still disclose non-public information that you desire to be told, it's entirely understandable that those with the information are usually extremely careful who they tell, particularly around operational deployments. It's all about circles of trust, limiting personal risk/consequences, and dare I say it, protecting your friends/sources. It's most likely nothing at all personal to you, just that you've probably not developed the friendships/reputation around those who are privy to the information you seek. That's in no way elitist or cliquey, just a bald fact of how the world works - until you're taken into the trust of someone who has good gen, you're unlikely to get it.

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NAM Updater
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Re: Information help from members

Post by NAM Updater » Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:08 pm

Thor wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:03 pm
.... (Newark's Viggen into Cranwell, IAF B707 into Waddington) and on at least one of those occasions the person disclosing the information was subjected to sanctions in their role...
Here's a view from the other side of the fence, if you'll pardon the pun!

I was co-lead for Newark Air Museum for co-ordinating the Viggen delivery into RAF Cranwell in 2006, below is a section of text from an article that I had published in FlyPast magazine about "How We Captured a Big Sexy Swede!"

"Throughout the project the Internet was a valuable tool speeding up the communication process, with emails providing a valuable audit trail for discussions and the decision making process.

However, on the downside it also provided a fresh challenge in managing the gossip and rumour that the project generated in various national and international aviation web forums, which at times risked stalling the project all together. Of particular concern was the publication of delivery times and dates, when the final details of the loan agreement with the SAF had not been completed and delivery terms and conditions between the SAF and RAF were not agreed."


This is a polite version of what I wanted to write, because the leaks that started on a former version of this forum nearly cost us the permission to deliver the aircraft to RAF Cranwell, and indeed acquiring the aircraft itself.
Last edited by NAM Updater on Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Howard Heeley - Newark Air Museum Trustee
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Thor
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Re: Information help from members

Post by Thor » Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:21 pm

NAM Updater wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:08 pm
Thor wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:03 pm
.... (Newark's Viggen into Cranwell, IAF B707 into Waddington) and on at least one of those occasions the person disclosing the information was subjected to sanctions in their role...
Here's a view from the other side of the fence, if you'll pardon the pun!

This is a polite version of what I wanted to write, because the leaks that started on a former version of this forum nearly cost us the permission to delivery aircraft to RAF Cranwell, and indeed acquiring the aircraft itself.
Howard, that captures the other side of the 'cost' very nicely and covers some of the sensitivities around non-operational moves too.

Raptor22
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Re: Information help from members

Post by Raptor22 » Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:55 am

Ok so good replies from everyone. My point wasn't about military personnel or anything that is a security threat what i was aiming at is for example, is for lets say a u2 asking for the serial number and a rough time of departure and recovery surely this is not a problem is it ? For some people it is hard to see these planes so any information is very helpful

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PeteHemsley
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Re: Information help from members

Post by PeteHemsley » Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:19 am

Raptor22 wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:55 am
Ok so good replies from everyone. My point wasn't about military personnel or anything that is a security threat what i was aiming at is for example, is for lets say a u2 asking for the serial number and a rough time of departure and recovery surely this is not a problem is it ? For some people it is hard to see these planes so any information is very helpful
That's a bad example. Because of the aircraft type and nature of its role, that's not a great one to share info on. I do agree with most things on this subject matter, but I think what's not being considered is the sheer cost of everything these days. Just heading out, turning up at a fence line or going between a couple of bases is just not feasible for some these days. We no longer have the days of 80p per litre of fuel, loads of visiting aircraft or guaranteed movements. I understand that some people do struggle with finances, but still try to keep their passion/hobby active as much as they possibly which can become frustrating and stressful, but those shouldn't be ridiculed for asking questions about movements etc, but the flip side is that those with the info shouldn't be blasted for not sharing if it's a possible security breach.

Obviously we know that there's certain folk on here, the base regulars etc who have made friends in high places at these bases and are often invited inside the fence or maybe passed on some info regarding movements. Let's use the usaf machines in the mach loop for example. We know this info is shared from inside the fence. However, if said person is told to keep it to themselves or risk losing everything, that person will do just that. Those people may have a few close friends who they can pass this onto which is what the OP and many others call "clicks". Those who have info shared to them do so because they are highly trusted. The forums are not your highly trusted friend. You could literally be anyone asking for this info.

So please don't get pee'd off at people for not sharing expected movements. Although it's frustrating, just think about the other side for a moment before casting judgements.

Cheers

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NAM Updater
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Re: Information help from members

Post by NAM Updater » Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:19 am

Raptor22 wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:55 am
Ok so good replies from everyone. My point wasn't about military personnel or anything that is a security threat what i was aiming at is for example, is for lets say a u2 asking for the serial number and a rough time of departure and recovery surely this is not a problem is it ? For some people it is hard to see these planes so any information is very helpful
If I may I’d like to respond using the delivery of our Viggen to RAF Cranwell to illustrate other challenges that gossip and rumour can cause.

The issue that we faced wasn’t a security issue but a resourcing one and also project viability. Also the gossip and speculation contained incorrect information that was critical to the approval from RAF Cranwell; and this was outlined in the FlyPast article:

“…….. On December 14, 2005 an email arrived advising that the delivery date had slipped to Week 7, 2006 and would not now take place before February 13, 2006. The email also advised wording for the EUC. The following day initial contact was established with the proposed delivery pilot, Major Thomas Palmklint, Deputy Squadron Commander, 211 Squadron SAF. This email instigated a review of outstanding items, including the aircraft’s identity for the EUC, details of handover ceremonies and requirements for the support aircraft and deactivation team.

A project review was undertaken on December 20, 2005 and contact established with the RAF Cranwell Community Relations Officer about publicity requirements for the delivery flight.

On December 21, 2005 the Viggen identification details were received, which allowed the museum to complete and return the EUC to Sweden. The loan could not be formally completed until a signed copy of the EUC was returned from the SAF. Just two hours after the EUC had been posted the museum received an email asking for confirmation of the Viggen delivery, details of which had been posted on an aviation web forum.

Not only did the posting give a delivery date but it also stated that the Viggen had been donated to the museum. This latter point was of particular concern because not only did it jeopardise the agreement from RAF Cranwell to accept delivery of the Viggen on the basis of it being ‘a loaned military aircraft’, but it potentially impacted on the import documentation. Hasty calls were made to reassure all parties that the web chatter was incorrect and that it had not come from the museum. This allayed some concerns but the web forum issue did not go away entirely.

Despite both the RAF and the SAF going out of contact over the holidays, NAM continued with its planning for the dismantling task post Viggen delivery to RAF Cranwell. A team was established from amongst the NAM volunteers and a further set of questions was emailed to Sweden on January 3, 2006.

On January 9, 2006 the delivery pilot indicated the delivery could be made on January 11, 2006 but he also highlighted a possible delay for the deactivation team arriving at RAF Cranwell. This delay was unacceptable to RAF Cranwell and left the delivery in doubt, so RAF Cranwell suggested another delivery schedule.

A telephone call at 09.15 hours on January 10, 2006 advised that the Viggen and support aircraft were scheduled for a 12.00 hours arrival at RAF Cranwell. Calls were made and in people set off to Cranwell, only to receive second calls en route confirming the delivery had been cancelled. Subsequent emails advised that the delivery was delayed for at least a week.

At this time the web forums were in near overdrive, with everyone predicting a delivery flight for January 11, 2006. Even with the delivery on hold and potentially being cancelled altogether unless timing issues could be resolved due to incompatibility of the delivery time and deactivation time, people were planning trips to RAF Cranwell.

Despite a posting on the museum website urging people not to go, January 11, 2006 dawned with many enthusiasts arriving at RAF Cranwell. This situation was partially resolved by the RAF Police touring the station advising everyone to leave. The situation was further compounded the following day when an aviation magazine printed further incorrect delivery dates, again forcing the museum to publish denials on its website.

A good news email arrived on January 12, 2006 from the delivery pilot, suggesting a revised delivery schedule for February with more acceptable dates for the arrival of the deactivation team. The museum realised that in making this offer the SAF had extended the service life of the Viggen to make the delivery flight possible. Despite an anxious couple of days RAF Cranwell agreed to the revised Swedish schedule on January 16, 2006….”


I was personally involved with all of these challenges and it is still really disheartening to think that we came so close to losing the loan of the Saab Viggen; basically due to mis-information and gossip!

Footnote: EUC = End User Certificate
Howard Heeley - Newark Air Museum Trustee
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Tally-ho
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Re: Information help from members

Post by Tally-ho » Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:17 am

NAM Updater wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:08 pm

"Throughout the project the Internet was a valuable tool speeding up the communication process, with emails providing a valuable audit trail for discussions and the decision making process.

However, on the downside it also provided a fresh challenge in managing the gossip and rumour that the project generated in various national and international aviation web forums, which at times risked stalling the project all together.
Firstly, thank you for the work you do, and for the preservation of all things aviation, at NAM.

Secondly, you have vividly illustrated from personal experience the symbiotic nature of the Internet and digital social media. All of the following -
a) facts, evidence and data
b) gossip, stories and speculation
all of it, feeds into the system. And yes, the broader system needs all of both sides, to function.

To the broader membership, here's my view on this 'Information' issue:-
A forum such as this will not and can not exist without all of the a or b (see above) components. Without input from members, be it from points a or b (see above) there will be no Fighter Control forum. The beast, this forum, needs feeding 24/7 because without it being fed it will die.
So, whether you are reliant on privileged information, or perhaps only on idle chatter, both are useful in spotting and photography.

Remember, nobody owes anyone anything on this forum! You come and go as you see fit. If some share information, it's welcome, and if nobody shares information it's fine too. Those simple realities of life is a constant - and ever thus it will remain!

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Re: Information help from members

Post by NAM Updater » Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:56 am

Tally-ho wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:17 am
Firstly, thank you for the work you do, and for the preservation of all things aviation, at NAM.
Thank you for that comment.

One final set of text from my article, which kind of sums up what can happen even after weeks on planning / preparation and angst!

"An email arrived from RAF Cranwell Operations [Ops] on February 3, 2006 confirming the in bound arrival time for the Viggen on February 6, 2006 and NAM made final arrangements for the arrival party.

Early on February 6, 2006 news arrived that the delivery flight had been cancelled due to snowstorms over Sweden impacting on the planned refuelling stop in southern Sweden.

At 0900 hours February 7, 2006 Cranwell Ops advised that the delivery flight had again been cancelled. Nothing more was heard until 1310 hours when Cranwell Ops advised that the Viggen had just touched down safely. The slight confusion arose because Captain Haraldsson had filed two flight plans, one of which was cancelled with the flight being made on the second.

A small team from the museum made their way to RAF Cranwell to meet the pilot and photograph the Viggen. Just before sundown Serco manoeuvred the aircraft into its new temporary home in Hangar 29 using a towing arm, which the SAF had pre-positioned at RAF Cranwell along with a crew ladder and other ground equipment."


So basically, no one from the museum was at Cranwell to see the arrival, me included!
Howard Heeley - Newark Air Museum Trustee
Every museum visit counts!
http://newarkairmuseum.org

Andy_99
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Re: Information help from members

Post by Andy_99 » Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:55 pm

I can see both sides of the coin with this particular argument & to be honest I haven't a clue how to resolve it & keep everyone happy.

Yes it'd be great to know about everything that's coming up & being at the correct location to see it. however as we all know when the info gets out onto the Web massed crowds arrive (not all regulars of the hobby) & chaos ensues, sensible parking out the window, Litter Strewn everywhere, no respect for landowners outside of the base etc. When the Raptors were at Lakenheath in 2017(IIRC) the mess & damage caused by the so called 'Enthusiasts' resulted in the withdrawal of the goodwill of some landowners, rumours of tightening of parking controls etc. If I was a local I'd be pretty upset if the hoards ruined my hobby as a result so potentially I'd keep any info I have close to my chest to minimise the crowds.

As a Non-Local to the active bases I need to plan my trips & really appreciate any heads up info I can gain, even if it's just opening hours. Also as a long term enthusiast I appreciate the need to get to a spot early in order that I can park sensibly, I have a bag in the car into which all my litter goes & normally a couple of bags that I'll pick up some others litter in a quiet moment to take away & dispose of properly.

I also appreciate the need for Opsec in these uncertain times so fully understand why certain info shouldn't be shared publicly but surely that should just be common sense.

Over the years I've had tons of useful info from this site when planning a visit, long may it continue.

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bizfreeq
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Re: Information help from members

Post by bizfreeq » Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:35 pm

I think what really needs to be remembered here is that this is a hobby, nothing more. So if you are unable to get hold of the info that tells you everything you want to know, then that is the way it is. At worst you've wasted a trip or you've not gone at all and missed whatever it is..... a few aeroplanes, that's it, no one died, the world didn't end, you missed seeing aircraft....it really isn't important in the grand scheme of things. Yes it is great when we are spoon fed all the gen and you turn up and it all goes to plan, you get all your numbers and/or photos and life is grand but it is not and can not always be that way, and it really doesn't matter. As was said in an earlier post, no one is obliged to share the info, many because they could, and some have believe me, I know at least one, lose their jobs by doing so. Perhaps before you ask the usual 'when are they due' 'what time are the leaving' questions, stop and think for a second and ask yourself 'if this info was known and was also available for posting publicly, would the info not already be on here?' And also if the lack of info is getting to you enough that you need to make comments about people not sharing with the wider audience, take a sec and ask yourself how you would feel if you were told something in confidence and what you would do. Would you say b*gger it I will post it on FC anyway.....then the info gets traced back to your mate and he/she loses their job, would that still be ok with you? I would hope not, but.........
Just some musings and nothing more, and not directed at anyone specifically, a little food for thought.
Cheers
Mark



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plmc135
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Re: Information help from members

Post by plmc135 » Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:42 pm

NAM Updater wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:56 am
Tally-ho wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:17 am
Firstly, thank you for the work you do, and for the preservation of all things aviation, at NAM.
Thank you for that comment.

One final set of text from my article, which kind of sums up what can happen even after weeks on planning / preparation and angst!

"An email arrived from RAF Cranwell Operations [Ops] on February 3, 2006 confirming the in bound arrival time for the Viggen on February 6, 2006 and NAM made final arrangements for the arrival party.

Early on February 6, 2006 news arrived that the delivery flight had been cancelled due to snowstorms over Sweden impacting on the planned refuelling stop in southern Sweden.

At 0900 hours February 7, 2006 Cranwell Ops advised that the delivery flight had again been cancelled. Nothing more was heard until 1310 hours when Cranwell Ops advised that the Viggen had just touched down safely. The slight confusion arose because Captain Haraldsson had filed two flight plans, one of which was cancelled with the flight being made on the second.

A small team from the museum made their way to RAF Cranwell to meet the pilot and photograph the Viggen. Just before sundown Serco manoeuvred the aircraft into its new temporary home in Hangar 29 using a towing arm, which the SAF had pre-positioned at RAF Cranwell along with a crew ladder and other ground equipment."


So basically, no one from the museum was at Cranwell to see the arrival, me included!
I must have been very lucky that day then as I was at Coningsby and watched the Viggen fly a very long and slow approach to Cranwell.

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NAM Updater
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Re: Information help from members

Post by NAM Updater » Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:49 pm

plmc135 wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:42 pm
I must have been very lucky that day then as I was at Coningsby and watched the Viggen fly a very long and slow approach to Cranwell.
You were indeed lucky; to the best of my knowledge there is just one photographer who captured the landing - they are a forum member and IIRC their picture was used in the Flypast article. :pop:
Howard Heeley - Newark Air Museum Trustee
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Raptor22
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Re: Information help from members

Post by Raptor22 » Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:46 am

Ok so there again seems to be arguments over this im not asking for top secret answers or any answers that would jeopardise personnel missions base security ect and yes i 99.9 percent of the time wait and try to see what is about and try to see it there has been twice someone has DM me with a answer and kept to myself as i would want anyone else to do i only ask if its its something i think isnt a problem the actual thing I want to say about and people i cant as they are innocent people and would not be fair the thing was not about aircraft as such type time or anything else it was to do with a certain base were things are happening and everyone can see this yet people who go there hate anyone talking about anything that goes on its not a security threat thats my point these people state no help with the most knowledgeable information thats about very sad indeed as for its only a plane yes it is and i for one have spent many hours miles money missing stuff but i dont bitch on about it it is very hard for some to be able to get a chance to see planes for financial reasons and distance so information about time or a possible day is most certainly welcome like it was on here for the Raptors was that info a security threat

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Mike
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Re: Information help from members

Post by Mike » Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:12 pm

Yes. :S
This season, I'll be mostly wearing........A THONG!

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plmc135
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Re: Information help from members

Post by plmc135 » Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:42 pm

Do we have a record for the longest post with no punctuation? My breath did not last long enough :halo:

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