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China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 8:28 am
by moonstone_laura
From 'Sky News':
China has recruited dozens of former British military pilots to teach the Chinese armed forces how to defeat western warplanes and helicopters in a "threat to UK interests", officials have revealed.
One official said some 30 mainly ex-fast jet but also some helicopter pilots - lured by annual salaries of around £240,000 - are currently in China training pilots for the People's Liberation Army, in what a defence analyst described as a stunning breach of security.
A retired senior Royal Air Force officer said: "Wow… that is appalling. What were they thinking?"
Beijing is actively trying to hire many more serving and former military pilots and other specialists from across the RAF, the Royal Navy and the British Army as well as personnel from other western nations, the western official said.
The situation is so grave, the Ministry of Defence's Defence Intelligence service on Tuesday issued a "threat alert" to warn serving and former military personnel against such approaches.
China is using third-party head-hunters, including a company based in South Africa, to target personnel, the western official said.
The official named the company as the Test Flying Academy of South Africa, though stressed it had no connection with the South African government.
https://news.sky.com/story/chinas-armed ... s-12723395
Re: China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:02 am
by Northsky
What about them signing the Official Secrets Act . Its a disgrace.
Re: China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:07 pm
by Sparts99
Northsky wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:02 am
What about them signing the Official Secrets Act . Its a disgrace.
Have you read the article?
Re: China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:32 pm
by C24
Here is a link
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63293582
This seems appropriate
“You can’t get the right staff anymore “
Re: China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:38 pm
by cat1
moonstone_laura wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 8:28 am
From 'Sky News':
China is using third-party head-hunters, including a company based in South Africa, to target personnel, the western official said.
The official named the company as the Test Flying Academy of South Africa, though stressed it had no connection with the South African government.
is this the aforementioned company?
https://www.tfasa.com/
Re: China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 2:12 pm
by Sparts99
yes that's them, as mentioned in the Sky News article link.
Re: China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 3:05 pm
by Starbuck
It's not just China that's head hunting instructors, a number have been poached by Saudi too.
Re: China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 3:26 pm
by toom317
Northsky wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:02 am
What about them signing the Official Secrets Act . Its a disgrace.
What has working for the Chinese got to do with the OSA?
Re: China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 3:36 pm
by Malcolm
toom317 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 3:26 pm
Northsky wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:02 am
What about them signing the Official Secrets Act . Its a disgrace.
What has working for the Chinese got to do with the OSA?
Teaching a foreign nations pilots how to fly is one thing. Teaching a foreign nations pilots what the tactics used by NATO and UK front line pilots are, and what their aircrafts capabilities are, and potentially how to defeat them is something else.
Re: China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 5:53 pm
by Richard B
What do you expect when you have made hundreds of well trained and combat proven pilots redundant over the last decade or so. They want to fly. Hundreds of Tornado F3 and gr4 jocks gone. Harrier pilots and the jaguars to name a few guess hawk fleet is reduced now so we have ourselfs to blame for just casting away all that talent.
Re: China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 6:00 pm
by Tally-ho
There is clearly a problem here.
Then again, as is the case with much else here, the UK with its very liberal and easy going approach to the application of its own laws, has itself to blame. Light touch enforcement, light touch prosecution and penalties, and you have a perfect storm. What could easily be defined as treason, aiding and abetting a foreign country with matters military, whereby the security of the UK becomes compromised, is at play here.
Life has been easy since 1945! Look around you at the detritus of modern society ...
Re: China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 6:16 pm
by toom317
Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 3:36 pm
toom317 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 3:26 pm
Northsky wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:02 am
What about them signing the Official Secrets Act . Its a disgrace.
What has working for the Chinese got to do with the OSA?
Teaching a foreign nations pilots how to fly is one thing. Teaching a foreign nations pilots what the tactics used by NATO and UK front line pilots are, and what their aircrafts capabilities are, and potentially how to defeat them is something else.
Is it illegal?
Re: China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 6:49 pm
by Malcolm
toom317 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 6:16 pm
Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 3:36 pm
toom317 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 3:26 pm
What has working for the Chinese got to do with the OSA?
Teaching a foreign nations pilots how to fly is one thing. Teaching a foreign nations pilots what the tactics used by NATO and UK front line pilots are, and what their aircrafts capabilities are, and potentially how to defeat them is something else.
Is it illegal?
Potentially, yes. The capabilities of modern combat aircraft is a secret, and on Tornado F3 at least I know there was a "standard" training course, and a "UK only" course in the simulators.
However the OSA is a very blunt instrument - it'd be much better to have a specific offence to cover this, and IMV one of the penalties should be the forfeit of future pension rights.
Re: China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 8:16 pm
by toom317
Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 6:49 pm
toom317 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 6:16 pm
Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 3:36 pm
Teaching a foreign nations pilots how to fly is one thing. Teaching a foreign nations pilots what the tactics used by NATO and UK front line pilots are, and what their aircrafts capabilities are, and potentially how to defeat them is something else.
Is it illegal?
Potentially, yes. The capabilities of modern combat aircraft is a secret, and on Tornado F3 at least I know there was a "standard" training course, and a "UK only" course in the simulators.
However the OSA is a very blunt instrument - it'd be much better to have a specific offence to cover this, and IMV one of the penalties should be the forfeit of future pension rights.
Re: China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 8:17 pm
by toom317
We don't fly F3's anymore.
Re: China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:10 pm
by Ghastly Whisper
Mercenaries have been around for thousands of years and will continue to be around while people can pay them, nothing new.
Re: China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:11 pm
by TonyO
toom317 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 6:16 pm
Is it illegal?
No, its not, it appears to fall into a loophole in UK law which will likely be addressed in the new National Security Bill, but be in no doubt, the UK government and indeed much of the rest of the West increasingly sees China for what it really is, an dangerous adversary that we could one day end up in a conflict with. Any transfer of information on tactics, doctrines used by the West should be considered to be espionage.
Re: China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:17 pm
by TonyO
Ghastly Whisper wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:10 pm
Mercenaries have been around for thousands of years and will continue to be around while people can pay them, nothing new.
Not sure these people can be considered mercenaries, afterall it doesn't appear they have joined the PLAAF, so they are probably more a consultant at this point.
Re: China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:49 pm
by Malcolm
toom317 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 8:17 pm
We don't fly F3's anymore.
I know, but I haven't worked on the Typhoon or F-35 simulators to know if there are differences between UK and non-UK training programs. I'd bet there are though, and if someone was found to have disclosed those differences to a foreign power I've no doubt they'd be in hot water.
The current problem is that whilst people with that knowledge are working in China as contractors/trainers/consultants, it's difficult for anyone to prove what - if anything - they have disclosed. The security services seem to be sufficiently concerned about this that they are advocating the Govt introduce new laws to stop it.
Re: China's armed forces recruiting dozens of British ex military pilots
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:02 am
by Tally-ho
toom317 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 8:17 pm
We don't fly F3's anymore.
You are either incapable of grasping the risks or you are trolling for the sake of it.
Whether former RAF pilots flew an F3, a Spitfire or a Sopwith Camel, is beside the point. The tactics, the battle doctrine and a plethora of other sensitive operational disciplines are at risk. Passing on information of your country's military capabilities to the Chinese Communists, in any form and in the broadest meaning of the word, is plain treasonous.
Which side are you on?
