Brexit - EU Poll

[EF-111]

For me migration from EU wouldn't be the main issue if everything was as black and white as politicians would try to have everyone believe. We keep being told that most EU immigrants are working and benefit our country because of the money they put back in, rather than being on benefits.

I used to work with a qualified paramedic from Poland who owned a plot of land there, and was living here in a rented house with 7 others. He was in employment here sorting mail because:-

a) he was earning far more than back home
b) there was far less stress or responsibility for the money

I asked him once if he liked this country. His reply? "No I hate everything about it, I'm only going to be here until I have earned enough to have my house built back home then I'm off."
After two years of sending most of his wages back home, true to his word he went back to Poland and moved into his newly built house.
What a great benefit he was to our economy!!

Steve.

[Blue Diamond]

The economy is the biggest question mark, not immigration. He is right to be completely focused on it.

How come back in November Cameron said we would "thrive" outside the EU, yet 7 months later it's all doom and gloom. Project fear so far it's not working for a large portion of the population. DC is damaged good and could be coming towards the end of his time .

The economy is biggest question mark for some. Immigration for other, come to Lincolnshire especially Boston, Spalding and Wisbech in Norfolk. You'll see immigration is a lot more important to these towns

Boston, most migrates per head of population, biggest increase in population in the last few years. Most divided town and now murder capital of the UK per capita. Ask some of the locals i'm sure they will tell you what is up on there agenda.

No different to BoJo saying we would be mad to leave the EU yet a few months later he's campaigning for an exit.

[C24]

More for you to read.

http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/the ... rticle-50/

[beefsteak]

My thoughts for what it's worth.

I, for one, can remember what we as a nation had before we joined the "Common Market" all those years ago:-

We had a car manufacturing industry, making British cars, closed because it was cheaper to import from France, Germany et al (not the Jap and other nations rubbish that we have now.)
We had an iron and steel industry manufacturing British Steel. Now it's cheaper to import it from India and China (Apart from the fact that we no longer have the huge manufacturing industries that required the vast amounts of iron and steel any more!)
We had a coal industry turning out British coal, closed because it was cheaper to import it from Poland
We had a major manufacturer of bicycles, (Raleigh in Nottingham used to employ 10,000 people) gone because it was cheaper to get them from China.
Along with hundreds of others. All lost because we had to obey EU rules regarding imports and exports!
Also look at the 'true' unemployment figures, 1973 1.2 million, now over 5,000,000 if you count everybody on zero hours contracts, and part time workers.

And lets face it, they darn well hate us! you only had to watch Andy Murray in the tennis final on Sunday and listen to their reactions when he scored a great point compared with Djokovic or the results of the Eurovision song contest, a bit bad when you see that only four countries voted for us in the 'public vote'!

Oh and as a little 'aside' to KyleG , we still have to pay extra to use our mobiles abroad !

[Rugbyref]

We keep hearing that there are not enough facts out there, so here goes:
FACTS


1. The EU has the ‘right’ to make us impose VAT on female sanitary products.

Source. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35834142

2. In 2013 the EU was proud of the fact that it was only defrauded to the tune of €248 Million, whilst in 2012 this was €315Million.

Source: EU’s website.

3. The EU’s accounts have had to be qualified by its auditors for over 20 years.

Source: EU’s website

4. The EU regards Kent as part of ‘Transmanche’ region of France.

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1527886 ... rance.html

5. The EU does meddle in the shape of cucumbers. Class I and "Extra class" cucumbers are allowed a bend of 10mm per 10cm of length. Class II cucumbers can bend twice as much.

Source: (Commission Regulation (EEC) No 1677/88)

6. EU officials are "immune from legal proceedings in respect of acts performed by them in their official capacity".

Source: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ ... N#page=102

7. The cost of moving the European parliament between Brussels and Strasbourg every month amounts to €114m a year.

Source: The European Court of Auditors

8. In 2015 the UK’s Gross Contribution to the EU was £17,800,000,000.

Source: http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ ... ry/SN06455

9. The UK is rebated part of its gross contribution. The rebate level is not guaranteed.

Source: https://www.ceps.eu/content/eu-budget-uk-rebate-and-cap

10. The EU has interfered too much in people’s lives

Source: Jean-Claude Juncker told a meeting of the Council of Europe in Strasbourg that people were “stepping away” from the EU, which he said had “lost a part of its attractiveness”.
Juncker said one of the reasons EU citizens were losing faith in the union was because “we are interfering in too many areas of their private lives, and in too many areas where member states are better placed to act”

[Sparts99]

I'm no fan of Cameron & Osbourne, but if Gove, Boris, Farrage, Putin, and Trump are supporting us leaving then I'm for staying.

If we leave we will have to negotiate with the EU for trade deals, they won't have to do us any favours at all, you can bet any 'agreement' will be very much in the EUs favour. We'll have no say in EU directives, but will have to follow them as Norway does in order to trade with them. Yes we can trade with the rest of the world, but as we'll be outside the EU all those agreements will need to be re-negotiated, from a position of weakness on the part of the UK. Blaming the destruction of our manufacturing industry on the EU is misguided, it was a combination of geographical factors, greedy unions, and inept government of all shades in this country. At last/least it seems the EU hierarchy are recognising that the EUs credibility and people's support for it is falling, and they will have to react to that. The fact that the UK is having a referendum at all is sending a clear message that people have had enough, and they know if they don't reform it'll fall apart. Britain's exit won't hasten that, they'll just try their best to prove the UK wrong and hang on as long as they can.

[EGDR]

Oh and as a little 'aside' to KyleG , we still have to pay extra to use our mobiles abroad !

As of today yes, although the prices decreased dramatically at the end of April. Providing the vote is to remain, from June 2017 onwards there will be no additional fees. http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/tr ... dex_en.htm

[beefsteak]

So like I said, we still have to pay to use our mobiles abroad then?!

What are your thoughts on my other points?

[KarlADrage]

Oh and as a little 'aside' to KyleG , we still have to pay extra to use our mobiles abroad !

As of today yes, although the prices decreased dramatically at the end of April. Providing the vote is to remain, from June 2017 onwards there will be no additional fees. http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/tr ... dex_en.htm

Not sure which countries it extends to, but '3' allowed me to use my UK allowance (calls, texts and data) without any additional charge in France last week

[EGDR]

So like I said, we still have to pay to use our mobiles abroad then?!

Today yes, soon no.

What are your thoughts on my other points?

Let's have a look

We had a car manufacturing industry, making British cars, closed because it was cheaper to import from France, Germany et al (not the Jap and other nations rubbish that we have now.)

We still have a huge car manufacturing industry, but predominantly operated by foreign car companies, which as long as they pay well, treat their workers fairly and pay their taxes, I have absolutely no problem with. Factories in the UK also manufacture most of the F1 cars that you'll find on the grid today - Red Bull, McLaren, Force India etc are all based in the UK. We also make a wide range of specialist components for cars across the globe.

We had an iron and steel industry manufacturing British Steel. Now it's cheaper to import it from India and China (Apart from the fact that we no longer have the huge manufacturing industries that required the vast amounts of iron and steel any more!)

Our steel industry could still produce a fair amount of steel, but of course they currently need to find a buyer. Worth noting that it's only cheaper to import from China/India because the Tories blocked an EU proposalthat would have increased tariffs on imported steel.

We had a coal industry turning out British coal, closed because it was cheaper to import it from Poland

Fair enough, although with the current state of the environment I could forego reintroduction of vast coal mining for further investment in more forward-looking projects like the Joint European Torus nuclear fusion project in Culham. We've already got to the stage where coal is no longer even the second largest contributor to the National Grid - http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

We had a major manufacturer of bicycles, (Raleigh in Nottingham used to employ 10,000 people) gone because it was cheaper to get them from China.

Never really looked into bicycle manufacturers so I'll take your word for that one.

Also look at the 'true' unemployment figures, 1973 1.2 million, now over 5,000,000 if you count everybody on zero hours contracts, and part time workers.

1973 featured one of the highest employment rates on record, so not surprised that there were less people unemployed then. As for 5 million unemployed, figures from just a couple of months ago show that to be untrue. For unemployment trends between the 70s and now, there's a good chart from the Office of National Statistics here - https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlab ... eries/mgsx

[beefsteak]

So like I said, we still have to pay to use our mobiles abroad then?!

Today yes, soon no.

What are your thoughts on my other points?

Let's have a look

We had a car manufacturing industry, making British cars, closed because it was cheaper to import from France, Germany et al (not the Jap and other nations rubbish that we have now.)

We still have a huge car manufacturing industry, but predominantly operated by foreign car companies, which as long as they pay well, treat their workers fairly and pay their taxes, I have absolutely no problem with. Factories in the UK also manufacture most of the F1 cars that you'll find on the grid today - Red Bull, McLaren, Force India etc are all based in the UK. We also make a wide range of specialist components for cars across the globe.

WE don't have a huge car manufacturing industry here, the Japanese and the French do!
And I, for one, do not include F1 cars as a major car builder, considering it's 4 or 5 each per year!!

We had an iron and steel industry manufacturing British Steel. Now it's cheaper to import it from India and China (Apart from the fact that we no longer have the huge manufacturing industries that required the vast amounts of iron and steel any more!)

Our steel industry could still produce a fair amount of steel, but of course they currently need to find a buyer. Worth noting that it's only cheaper to import from China/India because the Tories blocked an EU proposalthat would have increased tariffs on imported steel.

So like I said, "We had an iron and steel industry manufacturing British Steel" which we no longer have!

We had a coal industry turning out British coal, closed because it was cheaper to import it from Poland

Fair enough, although with the current state of the environment I could forego reintroduction of vast coal mining for further investment in more forward-looking projects like the Joint European Torus nuclear fusion project in Culham. We've already got to the stage where coal is no longer even the second largest contributor to the National Grid - http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

We had a major manufacturer of bicycles, (Raleigh in Nottingham used to employ 10,000 people) gone because it was cheaper to get them from China.

Never really looked into bicycle manufacturers so I'll take your word for that one.

Also look at the 'true' unemployment figures, 1973 1.2 million, now over 5,000,000 if you count everybody on zero hours contracts, and part time workers.

1973 featured one of the highest employment rates on record, so not surprised that there were less people unemployed then. As for 5 million unemployed, figures from just a couple of months ago show that to be untrue. For unemployment trends between the 70s and now, there's a good chart from the Office of National Statistics here - https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlab ... eries/mgsx

But as the saying goes, "Their are lies, damned lies, then there are statistics"

And like I said "If you count everybody on zero hours contracts, and part time workers" all of which were included in the 1973 figures then the figure is over 5,000,000 ! (Then if you want you can add on the disabled of which I'm one you're getting closer to 6,000,000 !)

And as you yourself state, "1973 featured one of the highest employment rates on record," that is so true.................. Then we joined the "Common Market" and it all went downhill from there!

[EGDR]

Correlation does not imply causation.

[beefsteak]

Ok , lets just employ a simple bit of common sense then

Before 1973 we had a major manufacturing industry, we joined the common market, and within 20 years it was mostly gone, unemployment was through the roof etc, etc, etc. If you don't think that correlates to anything then you have a hell of a lot to learn !

[Malcolm]

Ok , lets just employ a simple bit of common sense then

Before 1973 we had a major manufacturing industry, we joined the common market, and within 20 years it was mostly gone, unemployment was through the roof etc, etc, etc. If you don't think that correlates to anything then you have a hell of a lot to learn !

If Mr & Mrs Englander had insisted on buying UK produced goods even if they did cost more money, then some of these industries would probably still exist. But Mr & Mrs Englander doesn't - s/he buys the cheapest goods that are of an acceptable quality regardless of origin. So inefficient or more costly home grown products cease to exist. It's the economic equivalent of Darwinism. You are blaming the EU and the Uk Govt for something that is basic human behaviour, and if anyone is at fault, it's the general public.

Most of the industries you mention died because they couldn't compete with cheaper and/or better quality foreign imports. The only way a govt can protect indigenous industries is to subsidise them (with tax payers money - i.e. yours and mine) or to impose import tarrifs. Import tarrifs artificially increase the price of imports, in order that home grown industries can 'compete' (aka charge more money). The Brexiteers are claiming that outside the EU we could remove import duties and taxes on many products, and hence the cost to the consumer will be lower. That's probably true, but it will kill off yet more industries that are already on the brink.

The Uk economy has moved on, and now has a large Services/Financial sector. Whilst we're in the EU these can trade freely across all 28 countries and 500 Million people. Several EU members have floated the idea of a tax on financial services - aka the Tobin Tax. The UK has said it will veto any such proposals. However, if we leave the EU then we'll lose the ability to VETO, and the remaining 27 countries would be able to implement the Tobin Tax if thy so chose. Around 40% of UK exports are "Services", amounting to a net export surplus of around £6.5-7 Billion per month.

[beefsteak]

Most of the industries you mention died because they couldn't compete with cheaper and/or better quality foreign imports.

Precisely, and why are they cheaper?

And talking of vetos, look firstly at the latest stay campaign propaganda claiming Cameron will veto Turkey and Serbia from joining the EU then have a look for the piece of film from a month before the announcement of the referendum, where he said he'd welcome them with open arms (Sorry it won't let me paste the link to it!)

This might do it....
https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/vide ... 992821762/

Then there's the piece where Cameron said we wouldn't pay the 14 + billion bill the EU gave us................ He paid it, then tried to tax us (The disabled) to pay it!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ggdMU3-ACo

[beefsteak]

Anyway, it's your vote that counts, and looking at the current poll statistics I think we could be leaving, although it will be a lot closer than our poll suggests. (I know a load of us plane mad geeks (OR even plain mad geeks) ain't exactly the full spectrum of the electorate!)

[Paulo]

Beefstake ..... are we talking about the same car industry here...? With the absolute joke of a line up are you even surprised it died a death? EU or no EU, ain't nobody going to buy a flipping Metro!!

I'm staying out of the In / Out conversation, but your comments on home soil industries are cringe worthy.

I own a car, a bicycle, my home probably has some steel in it & my parents home still runs on coal before you question my authenticity to question your comments.

[TankBuster]

Well, I've made my mind up. I'm out!

To date, I haven't heard Cameron give one single good reason as to why we should vote to stay in Europe, obviously the PM's views are being controlled by Brussels. Maybe he is Angela Merkel in disguise?

Based on the general information available to us voters, it is pretty clear to see that the future of our country will most certainly be better off out of the EU!

Vote Leave

TankBuster

[Sparts99]

I've been chatting to a friend on line who lives in Switzerland, the Swiss can't believe we're considering leaving the EU, they think we're mad. The Swiss have the same constraints as EU countries, and worse trading deals. They have to go along with just about all EU dreectives in order to get the trade deals, but have no say in their formulation. Trading with the EU is a nightmare, remember that Switzerland's economy, much like Britain's, is not manufacturing but services, particularly financial services. Does anyone know anyone in Norway with experience of trading with EU?

[BMrider]

"I've been chatting to a friend on line who lives in Switzerland, the Swiss can't believe we're considering leaving the EU, they think we're mad"

What all of them? Switzerland had a population of 8.02 million, Population of (UK) was estimated to be 65 Million