RAF Cottesmore.

[RichC]

He always was. He was a softie and that is the opposite of what we need in this MoD.
We need a tough cookie who takes no nonsense approach... but then look what happens to those, they suddenly lose their job for disagreeing with the Government!

[romeo bravo]

They won't get rid of Wittering; they can't afford to. It's not the fact they won't be able to sell it, it's down to the fact it's on a lease from Burghley Estates. If the RAF/MOD wanted to 'sell', it reverts to Burghley Estates and the RAF/MOD has to return the land back into the same state it was when it was acquired 90 odd years ago. But then again, Joe Public wouldn't see this cost as it would be hidden in the weeds.

What would Joe Public say if the learnt about the 2 contracts in place for the Harrier fleet, with BAES (HPAC) and Rolls Royce (MRMS), equating to £750M until 2018. Bet these companies don't let the MOD off the hook if they decide to withdraw the Harrier fleet early. Both would have written some sort of clause in to the contract relating to drawdown on the fleet, airframe usage, engine hourse, etc. And I bet it screws the MOD to the wall.

As for the closure of Marham, can't see them closing RAF Sandringham!!

[Trenchard]

They won't get rid of Wittering; they can't afford to. It's not the fact they won't be able to sell it, it's down to the fact it's on a lease from Burghley Estates. If the RAF/MOD wanted to 'sell', it reverts to Burghley Estates and the RAF/MOD has to return the land back into the same state it was when it was acquired 90 odd years ago.

Nice story, but pure fantasy I'm afraid, no such arrangement exists either with RAF Wittering or the other base that is frequently described the same way, RAF Halton, except in Haltons case it is the Rothschilds Estate that is mentioned.

[headset 57]

A stupid decision yet again, wouldnt it make more sense to close Wittering and move the 9 or 10 Harriers of 20 Sqdn to Cottesmore instead of moving 1,4 and the NSW??!!!!!!!!

No as it would cost far more to put Wittering back to it's original use , as has been mentioned on here before.Anyway it's only until they retire them,and i suspect Wittering will still be used for something else.
Just gonna be one peed off farmer with the spotters again!...

[garethbrum]

What is annoying is the fact this is closing to fund helicopters which won't be of use until 3 years time (if that can be believed).
Hardly fast tracking like Brown has said, is it?
Look how quick our first C-17s went into service from acquiring them.
There must be a quicker way of getting Chinooks into service.... oh wait!
No... let's go back to that point again which crops up.... We might get them in the UK quick enough but of course Qinetiq need to get their hands on them first to "British" them. Which means faffing around with the avionics and sub systems and cockpit and defensive suites etc when in fact, they are perfectly fine when they arrive in the UK and ready to fly.

Where have seen this before? Oh year... years ago with the Chinook HC3 when infact they were ready to fly before the MoD farts about as usual with them at Boscombe Down.

First new delivery will be in 18 months according to the Defence Spending Committee..........

[HighlandSniper]

Why don't we just wait until 15:30 and stop all of the speculation.

[RichC]

First new delivery will be in 18 months according to the Defence Spending Committee..........

Delivery yes.... what will be the in theatre date?
Our HC3s were "delivered" but never got anywhere!!!

[garethbrum]

First new delivery will be in 18 months according to the Defence Spending Committee..........

Delivery yes.... what will be the in theatre date?
Our HC3s were "delivered" but never got anywhere!!!

These won't be procured in the same way though ie We know what what we want and that's what we'll get. None of the digital / analogue faffing that saw the HC3's sitting in a hangar for years on end.

[JG71]

Defence cut or Move.

Having just seen Bob Ainswoths attempt at using the English Language very poorly,i have a few words to say.

Firstly he mentions a 10% growth in expendeture.Well to any lay person that is obvious with us going into this war with Taliban.

He then goes onto to say that the budget will not be cut and savings will be made from elsewhere.

He mentions fuel and growth costs.I recall a delegation went to see the oil rich and what became of that.Nothing in my opinion.As usual we gave into them.And it was a case of oh yes have some Typhoons that were in the first instance meant for our boys and girls.

I do welcome the extra expense on Reaper,intel and alike and maybe just maybe something will come out of this.

He goes onto mention body armour,radios and such things.I say why did we not have this in the first place.When i went to the first round of sandy wars or should i say the aftermath in southern Turkey.My bosses used Amex cards to buy cam nets from Sweden that we did not have and even some food for us.Nothing seems to change.It is only down to having in some cases ,good officers who are prepared to go that extra mile for their troops.And i for one appreciated that from a Twenty One Year old Flg Off Eddy McLean.

Now for the crunch part.Our current equipment and airfields.Cottesmore will shut.Nimrod cuts.Tornado cuts.Bob Ainsworth in his talk indicates that Typhoon and JSF will be the only aircraft,that will fight the good fight so to speak.
I am not sure what to think in this regard.I should imagine and i think we all do,that we will have a change of government maybe as soon as March of next year.Will we see a change in aircraft spending i do not know.But what i do know is JSF is way behind budget.And will the Americans give us the codes for the software lol.

I in conclusion looking at tech figures still think Tornado although getting on in live is still capable for at least the next few years and should remain at present levels.this is as i see it to fill in the gaps.

Jim

[Sheff]

The urban myths surrounding Wittering have been buzzing around for years but the base will go - it's just that there are other units there to relocate first. I doubt if the Harrier fleet will survive much longer. The Defence Review next year will probably include a decision to dispose of whatever is left of the Harrier fleet. It's clear how this saga is going to unfold. Both Labour and Conservatives haven't got the guts to "ring fence" defence spending so they're obliged to make huge cuts. Given that both parties are still obsessed with Afghanistan, everything is being directed to that stupid crusade to the exclusion of everything else. The carriers and the F-35 will be the biggest question mark for next year but most sensible observers think that they will just not be affordable. The software arguments and the ridiculous overspend on the carriers (caused by delaying them) just compounds the problem and when the Review is finally conducted, it's easily the biggest target which would instantly make huge cost savings. The only way that they will survive is if the Navy makes enough political fuss to save them. They might (the Navy has always been good at fighting their corner while the RAF has always been useless) but it seems increasingly unlikely. That only leaves the Tornado GR4's and with the reductions already announced, it's obvious that Treasury pressure will lead to suggestions that the Typhoon can perform the Tornado's tasks and so another aircraft type can be completely removed.

Given the way in which the Nimrods are being shamelessly removed before a replacement is brought into service, the same logic may well apply to the Tornado. Dispose of the entire fleet and leave us with nothing until some UAV replacement is developed and brought into service... and hope that we don't need either type in the meantime. The OSD for Tornado which was scheduled to be 2025 just sounds increasingly like a joke - the "bean counters" at Whitehall will not be able to resist getting their sticky fingers on them for that long. This era of cutbacks will only end when the RAF has just the Typhoon to perform both defence and attack tasks. Maybe they'll have a few F-35's too but frankly I (along with most people) think even this is unlikely. The game's up, our Government has effectively abandoned any realistic attempt to provide this country with a credible defence. They are only interested in supporting America's bizarre crusade in Afghanistan and when that is done, they'll conclude that the helicopter and transport fleets are also unnecessary too. We've come so far from the days of the Cold War that our politicians are too blind, too stupid or two self-obsessed to consider the wider implications of this country's defence needs.

In some respects I guess it is a good thing that we're blindly following America's foreign policy lead as we will soon be completely reliant upon America to defend us, should the need ever arise.

[Bucky P]

So the Chinooks to be delivered in 2013 so presumably in service by 2025 judging by the last lot we bought! And by then there will be nowhere to base them because I would assume all air bases will have closed by then, any aircraft we have left will probably be operating out of Heathrow with posh new Royal Air Force Airlines plastered all along the sides!

The alternative is to pull all our forces back, seal our borders so that no terrorists can get in and deport all potential terrorists so that there is no threat of terrorism! I think any potential terrorist threat will come from within the UK as has been seen before so fighting a battle in the sand pit really doesn't help much.
It would cost a lot of money to seal our borders, etc, but the cost would be far lower than it's costing us now and we could still keep our home defences. If another country were to have a pop at us tomorrow we would all be speaking a different language by this time next year!

Just my opinion, maybe a bit controversial, but can we really afford to keep fighting this war, the country is virtually bankrupt and we're living on loans, how long before the debt collectors turn up and we face eviction?

[PR9]

Giving away the family silver to fund a fleet of American choppers that may not even be up to the job (if the fiasco of the HC3 is anything to go by).

A final stab in the back to the British people and taxpayers who have kept this bunch of morons in power for over 10 years.

[garyscott]

I can only describe this as 'criminal acts', unfortunately the perps are those that dont have to deal with the fallout from thier decisions because when there are repercussions, they will a: not be in office anymore, or b: will have resigned just prior to bieng involved in the rammifications of thier own decision. Leaving another muppet to take the flak. Politicians are a disease that there is no cure for. They spread like wildfire, are immune to normal courses of action and leave a trail of destruction in thier wake.
Whatever happened to "be prepared"?
If you draw down UK force levels and restrict UK eqiupment procurement, arent you inviting an aggressor to strike at the time you are weakest??
The military is like a condom, id rather have them and not need them, than need them and not have them.

P.S. - LMP and any others serving, im sorry for the analogy but its the first thing that came to mind!

[garyscott]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009 ... se-chinook" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leic ... 414300.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.defencemanagement.com/news_s ... p?id=11630" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Blackcat1]

A sad day for the forces (and the enthusiast!!!!)

[Doughnut]

I have not read all the threads there so sorry if the point as already been made but.....

Has anybody else noted that the British Government seems happy to give away billions to the 'under developed nations' in order to save the climate change talks. I am sure that would buy a few Chinooks. After all we will need them and the carriers when the 'under developed nations' are screaming for our help from flood and famine in the next decade.

[MacksAviation]

Depending when and if Cott closes, what is going to happen to the 10yr contract that BAE and R-R have up there. They move the navy there and build new homes. They build the paint shops etc. Why not close a base that "past it's sell by date" not one you've just spent millions on ffs.

If you can remember Finningley they did exactly the same moved loads of new units in did the place up and then closed it

[PR9]

I have not read all the threads there so sorry if the point as already been made but.....

Has anybody else noted that the British Government seems happy to give away billions to the 'under developed nations' in order to save the climate change talks. I am sure that would buy a few Chinooks. After all we will need them and the carriers when the 'under developed nations' are screaming for our help from flood and famine in the next decade.

Or when the "under developed nations" have built up their own stockpiles of weapons and fancy adding our green and not so pleasant land to their empire...

[Blackcat1]

Its all to familiar, they shut Coltishall, moved the Jaguar to Coningsby and not long after that they retired the Jag. I will miss Cottesmore, its a great base in a lovely part of England. It's a real shame. The government wont be happy until we dont have any air force left!!

[Sheff]

I think LMP is probably in the safest place! No matter what happens, the Typhoon fleet and Coningsby look like remaining the most secure RAF assets long into the future!

As I've said many time on FC, the Harriers were certain to go and the GR4 fleet likely to follow. The only question is whether the ridiculously small F-35 fleet (and carriers) survive too after the Defence Review. It's my opinion (and one shared by some very respected pundits) that they will not. Sadly, I was proved right about Cottesmore (been saying this for over a year!) and I fear that my hunch on the F-35 might be similarly accurate. There just isn't enough money to properly support a carrier force and a fleet of F-35's. Indeed a real cynic could conclude that we're witnessing some political manoeuvring here, suggesting that a smaller fleet of Harriers and Tornado GR4's will soldier-on until the F-35 arrives. Far more likely is that next year, the Defence Review will announce that in just the same way as Nimrod is being dumped early, the Harrier and GR4 force will go immediately, in order to save money until the F-35 arrives. Then, once the Harrier and Tornado force is gone, it is decided that the F-35 isn't affordable and hey presto, we have an all-Typhoon force. Cynical? Yes, Unlikely? No.