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Formula 1 2021

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steamy
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by steamy » Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:33 pm

seven wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:46 pm
steamy wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:53 pm
Hamilton should have gotten a tougher penalty... his race line was always going through Verstappen's car at that speed and was never going to make the overtake....he should have backed off and wouldn't have cause the crash
Or Verstappen could have taken a wider line, carried more speed, gained the inside/advantage for the next corner, and not ended up in the wall..

Verstappen should have been penalised, horner and Wheatley should have been penalised for their outbursts, and marko, well, Darwins law has to catch up with him at some time..

Had Hamilton backed off, he most likely would have lost the tow through Maggots and Becketts, being able to do nothing but sit at watch boy wonder driving off into the distance. And we'd have had Austria part 3. Sorry and all that but Hamilton very much did the right thing.
why take a wider line? Just to let Hamilton through?

He was in front, had the line and Hamilton was way off with his and his options were brake or hit
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seven
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by seven » Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:21 am

To avoid an accident which could have killed himself!?

To carry more speed and the advantage through the next corners!?

The race win was there for the taking had he done so, but no, he decided to turn in knowing Hamilton was there. Had Hamilton backed off, best he could of hoped for would be P2.
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seven
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by seven » Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:01 am

And now the team radio's have appeared, its confirmed red bull pitted Perez to take the fastest lap point away from Hamilton. Why anyone would want to be a second driver for them is beyond me...
#KeepFightingMichael #banthebulls

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James Cutting
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by James Cutting » Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:10 am

Verstappen is 1 of 3 drivers on the grid with ZERO penalty points on his license. But he is of course the mad man with aggressive driving, after all :)

Decided to turn in on Hamilton - Like I said before, what's he going to do, just drive on straight? He has to make the corner, which by the FIA rulebook was his corner, he was ahead and had the racing line :) Both can't walk away without SOME blame, but more leans towards Hamilton.
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slogen51
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by slogen51 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:51 am

I agree

I am a big Hamilton fan but he was never intending to make the apex of copse - both drivers were very aggressive but Hamilton can't expect Max to just get out of the way of his over speed drag into copse - it's not dodgems.

He should have received a drive through penalty

Later at the same corner Hamilton took a much tighter line when passing Leclerc to cap an otherwise brilliant drive from the Stevenage man.

Malcolm
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:08 am

slogen51 wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:51 am
I agree

I am a big Hamilton fan but he was never intending to make the apex of copse - both drivers were very aggressive but Hamilton can't expect Max to just get out of the way of his over speed drag into copse - it's not dodgems.

He should have received a drive through penalty

Later at the same corner Hamilton took a much tighter line when passing Leclerc to cap an otherwise brilliant drive from the Stevenage man.
I agree with that, and the statement made by the stewards. If Hamilton had made the apex at Copse then his case would have been much stronger that Max didn't leave enough room and turned in on him. However, Hamilton didn't make the apex, missing it by at least half a car's width and was understeering wide. Max did appear to leave enough room on the inside (at least up to the point of impact) therefore arguing that Max turned in on him is weak at best.

It would be nice to see an overlay of Max's predicted trajectory (assuming impact had been avoided) and whether that trajectory would have left a car's width up the inside at all points around Copse. I assume the stewards have that sort of info, and if it shows Max did leave space then Hamilton is (mostly) at fault IMV. If Max wasn't leaving that space then contact was inevitable and it becomes much more 50-50.

After the impact Hamilton only just remained on track and Leclerc (who took the normal racing line) overtook him up the inside. I do wonder if impact had not happened whether Max would have stayed within track limits, or if he'd have gone wide and Hamilton got up the inside. And if Max had managed to stay within limits would Hamilton have nerfed into the side of him anyway.

AIUI the car on the outside has to leave at least one cars width on the inside at the apex, and stay within track limits on the outside at the end of the corner. In my view Max did the first part, but we'll never know if he could have done the second part, or if he'd have done a Leclerc. The car on the inside has to take a tighter line, and use the one car's width at the apex, and leave at least one cars width on the outside at the end of the corner to avoid 'running the outside car off the track'. Hamilton didn't do the first part, and I've got real doubts that he'd have managed to do the second part either.

So for me, Hamilton was mostly at fault. As for the penalty, I'd probably have gone for the stiffer drive through penalty, which is effectively an 18 second penalty at Silverstone. I suspect Hamilton would still have got back up to second given the ease with which he dealt with Norris. Probably wouldn't have caught Leclerc but it would have been a grandstand finish on the last lap.

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steamy
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by steamy » Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:49 am

we'll just make a rule that when Hamilton is second, cars just let him past on tight corners
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slogen51
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by slogen51 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:52 am

If Hamilton had of received a drive through I would have enjoyed him trying to get back past Perez at copse and his old friend Alonso for that matter.

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Tooks
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by Tooks » Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:27 pm

James Cutting wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:10 am
Verstappen is 1 of 3 drivers on the grid with ZERO penalty points on his license. But he is of course the mad man with aggressive driving, after all :)

Decided to turn in on Hamilton - Like I said before, what's he going to do, just drive on straight? He has to make the corner, which by the FIA rulebook was his corner, he was ahead and had the racing line :) Both can't walk away without SOME blame, but more leans towards Hamilton.
Both Verstappen and Hamilton have had as many as 8 points on their licence over the last 7 years, I don’t think there’s much to choose between them, they’re both hard racers when it suits it would seem. 🙂

Your last sentence is pretty much what the Stewards decided isn’t it, everything else is just opinion after that. Hamilton knows he’s got a fight on his hands this year, and Max now has the memo that Hamilton won’t always get out of the way or back off.

Hopefully the cork is out of the champagne bottle for the rest of the season. 😁👍

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seven
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by seven » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:47 pm

James Cutting wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:10 am
Verstappen is 1 of 3 drivers on the grid with ZERO penalty points on his license. But he is of course the mad man with aggressive driving, after all :)

About as relevant as my penalty points or yours really

Decided to turn in on Hamilton - Like I said before, what's he going to do, just drive on straight? He has to make the corner, which by the FIA rulebook was his corner, he was ahead and had the racing line :) Both can't walk away without SOME blame, but more leans towards Hamilton.

Going straight on was as big a dumbass suggestion then as it is now, there was plenty of room around the outside, which would have given him the speed advantage, I don't get why you can't see that.
The FIA rulebook does indeed say that, but also says what Toto Wolf quoted.
I agree both were to blame, but as much as the collision was Hamiltons fault, lack of avoidance was Verstappen's.
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seven
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by seven » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:51 pm

slogen51 wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:51 am

He should have received a drive through penalty

IMO Verstappen should have been penalised for that weaving in both races, and the first lap at Imola.

Later at the same corner Hamilton took a much tighter line when passing Leclerc to cap an otherwise brilliant drive from the Stevenage man.

On up to Temperature tyres, on a much lighter car...
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seven
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by seven » Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:08 am
slogen51 wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:51 am


I agree with that, and the statement made by the stewards. If Hamilton had made the apex at Copse then his case would have been much stronger that Max didn't leave enough room and turned in on him. However, Hamilton didn't make the apex, missing it by at least half a car's width and was understeering wide. Max did appear to leave enough room on the inside (at least up to the point of impact) therefore arguing that Max turned in on him is weak at best.

verstappen didnt turn in on him, he kept the racing line knowing full well there was a car there.
As for understeering wide, that would have been caused by below optimum temperature tyres, and the tight radius attempt at the corner. With the former, being the first lap should have more leniency given. Ala lap 1 at Imola again..


if it shows Max did leave space then Hamilton is (mostly) at fault IMV. If Max wasn't leaving that space then contact was inevitable and it becomes much more 50-50.

I agree, but he didn't need to close in on a car he knew was there, there was ample space on the outside which would have given himself the advantage!

Max did the first part, but we'll never know if he could have done the second part

Most likely scenario is he'd have easily pulled ahead into Maggots.

Hamilton didn't do the first part, and I've got real doubts that he'd have managed to do the second part either.

Wouldn't have mattered, see above

As for the penalty, I'd probably have gone for the stiffer drive through penalty, which is effectively an 18 second penalty at Silverstone.

A drive though penalty on the current GP layout of Silverstone is faster than a racing lap. So yea, best keep away from stewarding if I were you ;)
#KeepFightingMichael #banthebulls

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seven
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by seven » Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:09 pm

slogen51 wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:52 am
If Hamilton had of received a drive through I would have enjoyed him trying to get back past Perez at copse and his old friend Alonso for that matter.
As a drive though is quicker than a racing lap on the current layout of Silverstone, best keep away from that one eh ;)
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by slogen51 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:05 pm

Sorry I called it by the wrong name, I meant a stop go penalty, the commentators were saying a full stop go penalty through the pits would have put him out behind Seb?

As I say I am a Lewis fan and was looking forward to a race long battle with Max. Like all sports men and women at the top of their game they seem to have an uncanny way of finding a way to win.

Edit : are you sure a simple drive through the pits is quicker than a race lap ??

raptor9
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by raptor9 » Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:37 pm

A drive through cannot possibly be quicker than the racing lap, because of the pit lane speed limit, surely!!.

Malcolm
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:48 pm

seven wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:09 pm
slogen51 wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:52 am
If Hamilton had of received a drive through I would have enjoyed him trying to get back past Perez at copse and his old friend Alonso for that matter.
As a drive though is quicker than a racing lap on the current layout of Silverstone, best keep away from that one eh ;)
It's not. A 'normal' pit stop with 2-ish seconds stationary to change all 4 wheels typically loses 20 seconds on track. A pit lane drive through without stopping will be roughly 2 seconds less than that, so about 18 seconds loss.

If driving through the pit lane were quicker that staying out on track then every driver would do it every lap.

Malcolm
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:09 pm

seven wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:08 pm
verstappen didnt turn in on him, he kept the racing line knowing full well there was a car there.
Max didn't keep the racing line - not even close. The racing line is to clip the inside apex of Copse before drifting across to the other side of the track at the exit of the corner, ideally staying just within track limits on the outside. This is the fastest way through 99% of corners in the dry and Copse is no exception.

However when you know there is someone up your inside then you MUST modify your line to leave a car width of space on the inside/apex of the corner, otherwise you'll get penalised for forcing another car off the track. IMV Max left a car width. Hamilton did lift off, but lack of grip (due to any number of possible reasons) meant he couldn't make the apex, which means he turned in too late and/or was going to fast to make the apex gap that Max had left for him.

Max had to turn in somewhere, and the rules say you should remain within track limits on the outside/exit of the corner. Leaving it too late results in doing a Leclerc at best. If Max left a cars width on the inside apex, and would have just remained within track limits on the exit, then he's done everything required.

It's then up to the other driver (Hamilton in this case) to control their car and use the car width of space at the apex, AND leave a car width of space at the exit of the corner. Under steering is no excuse, you aren't controlling you car properly, and if that causes a collision then you're always going to be deemed to be mostly responsible. You can't just steam up the inside into a corner and expect every one to get out of your way.

Malcolm
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:29 pm

slogen51 wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:05 pm
Sorry I called it by the wrong name, I meant a stop go penalty, the commentators were saying a full stop go penalty through the pits would have put him out behind Seb?
AIUI a drive through penalty has to be taken within 3 (or 5?) laps of the team being notified of the penalty. Therefore, if it had been issued at about the same time as the 10 sec time penalty was (Lap 2?), he'd have had to take it before Lap5 (or 7?) and the field would not have been very spread out after the restart, and Hamilton would have ended up down the back of the pack somewhere.

5 and 10 second time penalties must either be taken at your next pit stop, or if you don't make another pit stop they are added to your finishing time. What that meant was Hamilton could chose the timing of his scheduled pit stop whereby he had built up enough of a lead over the pack to drop back in somewhere much more convenient. If you wait till all the slower cars have already stopped before doing your pit stop, then you only have to be 10 seconds ahead of them to come out still ahead. That might mean waiting till lap20-25 to pit, but that's much better than serving a drive through on lap 5.

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seven
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by seven » Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:19 am

slogen51 wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:05 pm
Sorry I called it by the wrong name, I meant a stop go penalty, the commentators were saying a full stop go penalty through the pits would have put him out behind Seb?

You'd say that incident was on bar with the Baku 2017 one for example?
/b]

As I say I am a Lewis fan and was looking forward to a race long battle with Max. Like all sports men and women at the top of their game they seem to have an uncanny way of finding a way to win.

Was never going to Happen. Prime example being the sprint race on Saturday, once in the lead verstappen was just going to pull away.
And like the best sportspeople always do ;)


Edit : are you sure a simple drive through the pits is quicker than a race lap ??

As sure as i can be. It was said multiple times over the weekend and has been before. Mainly due to the sequence of corners the pit lane misses out.
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seven
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Re: Formula 1.

Post by seven » Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:20 am

raptor9 wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:37 pm
A drive through cannot possibly be quicker than the racing lap, because of the pit lane speed limit, surely!!.
Wouldnt be the the first time..
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