Red Arrows in Turmoil ?

[slogen51]

Rather a dramatic headline

Red Arrows in turmoil after one is sacked and another quits over ‘toxic culture’

https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.u ... 84848/amp/

The lack of trained pilots is said to have forced commanders to axe some of its best-loved formations, including the Diamond Nine, days before an airshow this year – though a skeleton team of seven still amazed fans.

I had assumed the reduction to a seven ship display was for economic reasons or to preserve the hawk airframe hours.

[Agent K]

Not sure the details of the incidents and what happened are quite correct but that’s the essence of it. Certainly wasn’t about economics……

[plmc135]

This all happened several months ago and was well discussed here on FC at the time.

[Drinkmat]

The Reds might manage a 9-ship next season if the leaders in the squadron can overcome the problems of this year. I'm sure that the issues highlighted in the press now are not much different to those of a regular and less high profile outfit, but it looks worse when you're in the public eye. They seem to have survived previous things like the falsifying of flying/simulator hours and the Murphy/Kirsty stuff. They'll bounce back with the right direction.

[slogen51]

Falsifying simulator hours!

( I didn't see the previous thread discussing the Reds - contrary to popular belief I don't read every thread - unless I might make a number! )

[DGSP69]

In my opinion as the 7 ship at RIAT this year they did look a little tired and unpolished in their performance. I ranked them only 3rd behind the Black Eagles and the Italians in terms of the display and the tightness of formation which is unlike the reds, we always associate with them as 'the best in the business'.

[sgtangel]

In my opinion as the 7 ship at RIAT this year they did look a little tired and unpolished in their performance. I ranked them only 3rd behind the Black Eagles and the Italians in terms of the display and the tightness of formation which is unlike the reds, we always associate with them as 'the best in the business'.

Agreed. If they stay a seven ship I would rather see them disband than carry on as a shadow of their former selves

[toom317]

They'll probably have to disband anyway, due to a lack of BAME and female pilots.

[roughcutter]

Metaphorically it's a sad reflection of the state of the Nation, when even the Reds are under par (well apart from the Lioness's )

[raptor9]

The Reds are allegedly under par because of misbehavior, which has little to do with the state of the Nation.

[wessexspotter]

The Reds are allegedly under par because of misbehavior, which has little to do with the state of the Nation.

Don't you watch the news?? I'd say they were 100% on-brand ATM

Given the ever-diminishing number of airshows and events they can display at in the UK, I wouldn't be surprised if their future was seriously being questioned irrespective of current events.

[raptor9]

Yes, I do read the news, and also a Professional Pilots site that has 7 pages devoted to the Red arrows. If YOU read that you would understand my post!!!.

[slogen51]

They do seem to be having some personnel issues and that may not be a new thing but nowadays it all leaks out on to social media and even so-called fake news gathers momentum as mainstream news lazily rehash stories picked up on social media.

[Supra]

The News be it in Paper, TV or Social medium is merely the same old excretia recycled & embellished by each subsequent iteration to further pedal it's wares as the truth. Sometimes there is some factual basis to the latest breaking headlines, but rarely does it result in truthful & quality reporting. Don't believe everything you hear or see! That said, returning to the Red Arrows/RAFAT team I personally think their days are numbered for the following reasons:-
a) Clearly (& despite the hype)they are only human & have well & truly "erred" in their Conduct & Standards.
b) Morale is alleged to be at an all time low.
c) The shortened Display Season makes the expense & training of the elite team too much in these austere times when Defence spending could be directed towards replacing some of the gear we have donated East.
d) The previous justification for the 'Reds' was partly for Foreign Sales, BUT we haven't got a British/UK Trainer to sell anymore?
e) When the day comes when the Hawk T1 retires, it's not really an equitable proposition to field a 'Pride of the UK'. team flying an overseas produced trainer.
f) Obviously RIAT produced an excellent opportunity to see several aerobatic demonstration Teams flying back to back on the same day. I know I'm not alone in thinking the Reds were no higher than Bronze Medal. Must try harder or give-up sooner rather than later!
Of course it's totally a Marmite thing....& I've gone off it big time!

[paddyboy]

Spot on with all your points, Supra, imho

[raptor9]

Paddy+1.

[plmc135]

One does have to question in the current uncertain times whether we should be spending money on RAFAT when there are far more pressing causes. As the famous saying used to go "their time is nigh".

[C24]

To add to comments above.
The team have spend several years away from the uk touring to promote the UK. I doubt that’s cost/benefit analysis would justify any of the trips, dare I say, “Jollies”?
Exercise Spring Hawk as covered by tv programmes seems to be a golfing holiday.
Recruiting using old aircraft reduces the impact.
The team represents a bunch of top line pilots out of service when recruiting suitable aircrew is the requirement.

The Typhoon (still in production and available for sale?) has a it’s pilot drawn from squadron service and available/current for front line duties and manages a fine display. It keeps her/him sharp.

Currently.. Three pilots are changed every year, such that normally three first-year pilots, three second-year pilots, and three in their final year are on the team.

2023/24 season. Drop new intake and revitalise the display with six red aircraft.
Use the aspirants in a front line role in three different squadrons to work up a different display unique to each squadron.
For airshows the four could join as a four ship which could split into four individual passes but in the area at the same time.

2024/25 season. Drop new intake and continue as already suggested.

2025/26 season. Drop the reds as a team and use the T1 Hawks as a platform for additional ordnance in conjunction with the Typhoons, maybe the F-25,Tempest.

As you can gather from this post, two slices of toast with Marmite can seriously affect one’s thought process.

The Fat Lady still sings.

[wessexspotter]

Yes, I do read the news, and also a Professional Pilots site that has 7 pages devoted to the Red arrows. If YOU read that you would understand my post!!!.

You mean PPRuNe? Yep, read that too. I was referring to our current political leadership....

Talking of which, its going to take a very brave leader to disband the Reds, given that they've pretty much reached cult status in the UK (poss even more so than the BBMF). I recall Cameron or Blair floated the idea once, only to quickly drop it following the public and tabloid outcry.

Don't forget the likes of the French and Italians are in the same boat regarding their display teams' airframe lives (at least the Italians still make a trainer, albeit one based on a Russian a/c). I guess if we could outlast them could see it as a win of sorts.

[raptor9]

Sorry, Wessex. Didn't twig that it was about leadership. Not going into politics about the state of the nation at the mo'