2010 Tucano Display Team Announced

[garethbrum]

As last year's effort wasn't seen very much, you'd think they'd save a bit of cash, unless it's due for a major service?

There wasn't a Tuc-Tuc display this year as the proposed display pilot suffered a crash on work-up to the display season. If my memory serves me right, said pilot sustained a broken leg in the incident.

Cheers,
Martin

It was his wrist I think Martin - a nasty one too if I remember correctly.

[Dunk]

As last year's effort wasn't seen very much, you'd think they'd save a bit of cash, unless it's due for a major service?

There wasn't a Tuc-Tuc display this year as the proposed display pilot suffered a crash on work-up to the display season. If my memory serves me right, said pilot sustained a broken leg in the incident.

Cheers,
Martin

I think the aircraft was painted ready for the season though, would seem a natural choice for this year?

[Sheff]

I can give you that

We should stop this now - I started-off as a joke and we're starting to sound like we actually care what colour it is! Wake me up again when it transorms into a Jet Provost!

[garethbrum]

I can give you that

We should stop this now - I started-off as a joke and we're starting to sound like we actually care what colour it is! Wake me up again when it transorms into a Jet Provost!

You might care when you see it (assuming it's approved). Having said that, you'd actually have to go to an airshow to see it in the flesh!

[Sheff]

You might care when you see it

Trust me, I won't! They could paint it dayglow pink and it would still only be a Tucano for heaven's sake! Like I was saying before, the Tucano is a bit of a lost cause for air displays. It's too small and too quiet to have any presence when the display line is so far from the spectators. Great plane to fly and ride in, nice to look at on the ground, but as an air display item? Nope, dull as dishwater. A nine-ship flypast would be worth looking at but a solo display is just a waste of everyone's time - including the poor pilot's!

[LMP]

You might care when you see it

Trust me, I won't! They could paint it dayglow pink and it would still only be a Tucano for heaven's sake! a solo display is just a waste of everyone's time - including the poor pilot's!

who is this bloke?

[Sheff]

I'm the evil voice of brutal honesty!

Go on, you know you agree with me really?!

Actually, I'll qualify this with the serious point again - it's not just a case of knocking the hapless Tucano for the sake of it, it's a question of whether maintaining a solo aerobatics display is worthwhile. We all know that display flying regulations are so ridiculously prohibitive that every display aircraft is now obliged to be positioned almost beyond the boundaries of the venue that it's displaying to, but given that these rules are never going to be relaxed, you have to wonder what point there is in spending money on a Tucano display that Joe Public can hardly even see. It's reached a stage where most show punters simply head-off to the loo or go for a pint while the poor Tucano pilot is working hard to put on a show. He's wasting his time and the MoD are wasting their money but one assumes that in their strange and rather short-sighted world, the relative cost of maintaining a solo Tucano display is perceived as being "good value" when compared (for example) with a Tornado GR4. As we all know, the reality of the situation is that it's false economy. You don't generate any public interest in the RAF by putting on a show which is incapable of capturing the spectator's attention.

I don't think there's any easy solution but to simply plod along with the same display year after year, varied only by the application of successively unlikely paint schemes isn't much of an answer. I guess it goes back to my old hobby horse about air shows in general, and the RAF's increasingly meagre participation. If the RAF is serious about having some sort of realistic impact with the tiny amount of resources which are still made available for shows, then the "cheap option" of providing a Tucano, Tutor and a King Air is not the way to achieve anything useful. I suspect that if the RAF/MoD was serious about the subject, then the only way forward now would be to abandon the notion of supporting a whole range of show venues through a season, and consider the consolidation of their "public showmanship" to maybe just one event, leaving the Red Arrows, BBMF and Falcons to do the rest elsewhere. I know that some people will cringe at the very notion of suggesting that we don't appreciate displays from the Tucano, Tutor and so on but if we're honest, we all know that no matter how much effort the pilots and ground crews might put into their displays, they inevitably bore the vast majority of spectators. That isn't to "knock" them in any way - they work hard to put on a good show, but no matter what they do, the circumstances in which they're obliged to perform inevitably guarantee that their efforts will largely be wasted.

But hey, I'm realistic enough to know that the MoD are a conservative bunch and nothing will change. It is perhaps ironic that the concept of "Blue Sky Thinking" never really applies to the RAF's public face!

[LMP]

You don't generate any public interest in the RAF by putting on a show which is incapable of capturing the spectator's attention...

That isn't to "knock" them in any way - they work hard to put on a good show, but no matter what they do, the circumstances in which they're obliged to perform inevitably guarantee that their efforts will largely be wasted.

Hmmm...eloquently put Mr Sheff, but I'm not sure my colleagues in the Tucano world would view it in quite the same way!

[Richard B]

Tim is straight and honest to the point,

and he is pretty much correct in what he as just said above,
you will not grab a kids attention with a Skoda, you bring out a Ferrari.

if you want to impress a future budding recruit make it big or noisey or fast. the Tucano as neither of them.

[LMP]

Tim is straight and honest to the point,

and he is pretty much correct in what he as just said above,
you will not grab a kids attention with a Skoda, you bring out a Ferrari.

if you want to impress a future budding recruit make it big or noisey or fast. the Tucano as neither of them.

I guess that this is where we have to agree to disagree. I have, in the past, been quite involved in engaging the public in what we do and you would be surprised what will inspire a child. The Tucano definitely plays it's part, and whilst it is not the loudest or fastest aircraft you will see, it does embody precision flying at it's best. I was once told by a very keen 8 year old that the Tucano was his favourite aeroplane..that boy is now doing very well the air cadets.

We would all like to see more fast jets - me included - but the offering provided by Linton's finest should not just be dismissed out of hand. It really shouldn't!

[garethbrum]

Tim is straight and honest to the point,

and he is pretty much correct in what he as just said above,
you will not grab a kids attention with a Skoda, you bring out a Ferrari.

if you want to impress a future budding recruit make it big or noisey or fast. the Tucano as neither of them.

He is straight and to the point but he also admits that he doesn't even bother going to airshows any more!

I want to see the fast jets as much as anyone but you would not believe the autographs those guys sign, the kids they talk to and the leaflets they hand out etc. It is about much much more than the flying displays alone.

They are far from being a waste of time and I am sure that the Tucano will work hard for the RAF next season along with the rest of the training aircraft.

[Flightline UK]

Good to see the Tucano back. It may not be best "display" aircraft on the circuit, but it can operate from venues that the faster, more pointy types can't such as Shoreham. It's the same for the Tutor which can get to even smaller venues such as Rougham and Little Gransden.

That means the public can meet the display pilots and talk to them. Actually meeting the public (including enthusiasts) can have far more impact than just wizzing round the sky and the occasional mention in the press! There's more work for the RAF's "solo" display teams than just the flying.

However, I think people do have a point when they say some European displays have more impact. It may be that RAF crews are subject to more "rules" governing what they can do, but it's not down to display line distances. The European displays pretty much operate to similar rules that the RAF use.

[Sheff]

Interesting points but I guess you have to draw your own conclusions. Okay, an eight year-old might say his favourite aircraft is the Tucano but is that a result of watching an aerobatics display? I suspect not. All well and good to be parked-up close to the public to sign autographs but that wasn't what I was getting-at. In all honesty, I think just about everyone would admit (if pressed) that from an air show spectator's vantage point, a Tucano display is a bore. Naturally, people are reluctant to say so, not least because it does sound a little unfair on the poor pilot who is working hard to put on a good display of precision aerobatics. But when the aircraft is literally a mile away at times, there's not much point. It might be of interest to other pilots and those who appreciate top-class flying, but one assumes that the aim is to capture the interest of the wider public and potential recruits in particular.

And yes, I admit (is it a crime now?) that I don't go to many air shows these days but that doesn't mean that I'm somehow unqualified to comment. I've gone to air shows since about 1966 so it's not as if I don't have a crystal clear view of what most shows comprise of! The only reason that I rarely bother going to shows now is because I'm unlikely to see anything of any interest. That's nobody's fault, just a fact of life! But that isn't to say that I'm somehow inclined to criticise the RAF for no reason - far from it in fact as I've done a lot to try and promote interest in the RAF through heaven-knows how many books, magazine features and so on that I've churned-out over the years (I know for certain that my efforts resulted in at least one guy becoming a fast-jet pilot so I'm pretty pleased about that!). I'm probably one of the RAF's most loyal supporters! My only gripe is with the folks who oversee the RAF's public face, and the half-hearted, ill-conceived and sometimes just plain stupid ways in which good publicity and public relations opportunities are either ignored, avoided or badly handled. It's been like this for more than a decade now and I find it rather sad.

I'm old enough and wise enough to know that we've reached a stage where the RAF simply can't afford to throw money at air displays. But that isn't to say that nothing can be achieved - I just don't accept that notion for a minute. It just seems particularly sad that virtually nothing of the RAF's operational capabilities will be presented to the public in future. This is kinda where we came in... have we really reached a stage where the most exciting thing we can find to talk about is what colour a Tucano is going to be painted?!

[Andyph]

Here here Sheff,

It seems obvious that the RAF needs to re-examine just how it conducts displays.

The role demos I thought were a move in the right direction but they undoubtedly are just too complex an animal to run.

From 8 years old and up most punters want to see the dead sparrows and fast jets. Training machines are typically only of interest to enthusiasts (and only a small percentage of those). Even if Linton painted naked women on the Irish parrots they would still have minimal impact on the vast majority of punters, irrespective of how well the aircraft is flown.

In fact I have thought for a long time that the RAF has been missing the point with presenting handling displays – especially when it comes to fast jets. Tornados, Jaguars, Buccaneers all tried (with varying degrees of success) to conduct “aerobatic” handling displays. Why? Aircraft with high wing loadings only end up looking like a very poor imitation of an F-16. Who wants to see a Tornado try (and fail) to fly slowly or turn tightly? Typhoon of course is a different animal!

In my view a ‘perfect’ Tornado display would involve 3 or 4 Mach 0.95 s&l passes at 100 ft (and who cares if they go out of sight and take 5 mins to turn around between passes) followed by a couple of full burner low overshoots or T&Gs. Magic and showi. Essential a cut down, fast jet only version of the role demo. They would also require oh fudge all practice/authorisation, meaning the display funding can cover more shows and perhaps allow a 2/4 ship demo at some of the bigger shows.

I for one would rather see my tax pounds spend on fast jet displays rather than ‘wasted’ on King Air/ Tucano/Firefly/Hawk displays. I would also be pretty confident that they would be a lot more effective at recruitment!

[LMP]

In my view a ‘perfect’ Tornado display would involve 3 or 4 Mach 0.95 s&l passes at 100 ft (and who cares if they go out of sight and take 5 mins to turn around between passes) followed by a couple of full burner low overshoots or T&Gs....They would also require oh fudge all practice/authorisation,...... meaning the display funding can cover more shows and perhaps allow a 2/4 ship demo at some of the bigger shows.

B***er all practice??!! Have you tried flying a Tornado? lol

[Sheff]

I quite agree that there seems to be some strange perception that a "flying display" has to be a full aerobatic sequence. My own view (as I've said many times before) is that both public and enthusiasts would be delighted to simply see the RAF's front and second-line aircraft simply flying, be it a simple roller or a gear-down flypast. Doesn't cost a thing if it's done as part of a routine sortie, so all it requires is the initiative and effort to shift some sorties from week days to a weekend. It used to happen at shows like St.Mawgan's where the event took place on a week day so there's clearly no reason why it cannot be done.

Indeed, going back to the Tucano, you have to wonder why Linton can't assemble a nine-ship formation for a couple of fly-by's, instead of wasting money and effort on a solo aerobatic sequence. No reason why shows like Waddington, Leuchars and RIAT couldn't benefit from nine Tucano's making a flypast instead of a solo display which most people don't even watch. They assemble nine-ships for graduation ceremonies without any difficulty so it can be done, indeed they managed to assemble 36 aircraft once when they really wanted to - and didn't even notify the public so that we could see the spectacle - madness!

I think a great deal could be done but the problem seems to be that the RAF's staff officers don't have the imagination or enthusiasm to look at possible options for air show participation. As one former OC of a well-known fast-jet squadron told me, some of these guys just want a quiet life drinking tea with a proverbial thumb up their bums, and they don't have the will or initiative to do anything unless they really have to. It's a great shame.

[LMP]

Good morning Mr Sheff

I note with interest all your comments and opinions on this subject and respect the right of anyone to express freely what is on their mind, as I would do myself! With regard to the subject of the Tucano display, it will be happening whatever, and the aircraft will be painted in an eye-catching scheme to attract maximum impact both in the air and on the ground. The aircrew member and team will be applying themselves greatly to work up for this display and pass PDA, and they will then give up most of their summer to display the aircraft to the public as well as 'press the flesh' on countless occasions! They do this to enhance the profile of the greatest air arm in the world, and because they want to! I know this because I have done it myself!

Granted, the Tucano is not fitted with afterburning turbofans, but it is a highly accomplished aeroplane and is a significant asset within the Royal Air Force, and that for the foreseeable future it is one of the principal flight training aircraft that anyone thinking of applying to join the RAF for aircrew will be using. Therefore, for that reason, it is a welcome display item.

This whole discussion goes back to what airshows are really for. Obviously, the majority of people on here are 'dyed in the wool' aviation enthusiasts, and therefore tend to scrutinise the activity of the RAF as much as possible. As an employee of that organisation, I sometimes find the negativity expressed by certain people a little disconcerting. They seem to have forgotten why the RAF exists, namely to defend the UK and its' interests abroad. The public face of the RAF is a very important one, but it is not it's 'raison d'etre' and the fact that it still provides a world-class 9 ship jet aerobatic display team, the world's finest heritage flight, a fantastic parachute display team and at least one front-line fast jet display should be commended - particularly at a time when cash is at a premium!

Coming from the other side of the fence so to speak, I and my colleagues sometimes look on forums and just laugh. There is so much rumour and counter rumour with regard to whats happening with what, whats going to be scrapped and whats not, etc..so little of it is actually based in fact. Additionally, it is even more amusing when the 'expert' enthusiast rears his or her head and starts expressing opinions and making claims which are so wide of the mark that they have us in tears of laughter! But what is upsetting is how critical some people are of the RAF, which in my view, and that of many many of my colleagues, is totally unfounded and without any basis in reality.

Believe me, we all do our best. The service is at a stretch to say the least and we always keep going. Think yourselves lucky that you have ANY displays at all, as that would be the logical thing to cut (with the exception of the Reds perhaps). I have seen some ridiculous comments on forums - such as one about Lossiemouth families day - in which someone was getting all upset because there were only FOUR Tornado GR4's launched! Good grief, that was a feat in itself! lol!

Mr Sheff, in conclusion, I always read your contributions with great interest, but maybe you could be a little less condemning of an organisation that has apparently served you so well in the pursuit of your writing career. Your negativity about the Royal Air Force is in the minority, and whilst constructive criticism is always pertinent, I believe that in many cases, it is unjustified.

Rightio, off to the gym now, and then the Pub!!

[tg13]

I totally agree with your statement LMP.Try being more supportive Sheff,instead of being so condeming of all the hard work that goes into display aircraft.Maybe you would care to come and "toil" in one of our paint shops for a week!!

[urkles]

I think Sheff has a point and is really saying , while he respects the RAF and the work they do he thinks they can do better, whats wrong with that? Look at what happens at my old base at Yeovilton every year for thery're show, darn half the Navy is up and flying showing off what they do! And its part of the training, the Navy is just (if not more so) as stretched as the air force, and is on the same budget restrictions (I believe more so) as the Air Force, in fact the FAA is only a part of the Navy!

And I wouldnt like to see what LMP respectivelly said to be an excuse for personal insults against Sheff either.

Mark

[GOOSE]

Ladies and Gents. Although the mood is currently OK please don't let it degenerate any further.

If you disagree with another members opinion so much simply don't read it.

Sideswipes at members will not be tolerated.

Many thanks.