I think Sheff has a point and is really saying , while he respects the RAF and the work they do he thinks they can do better, whats wrong with that? Look at what happens at my old base at Yeovilton every year for thery're show, darn half the Navy is up and flying showing off what they do! And its part of the training, the Navy is just (if not more so) as stretched as the air force, and is on the same budget restrictions (I believe more so) as the Air Force, in fact the FAA is only a part of the Navy!
And I wouldnt like to see what LMP respectivelly said to be an excuse for personal insults against Sheff either.
Mark
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2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
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GOOSE
Re: 2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
Ladies and Gents. Although the mood is currently OK please don't let it degenerate any further.
If you disagree with another members opinion so much simply don't read it.
Sideswipes at members will not be tolerated.
Many thanks.
If you disagree with another members opinion so much simply don't read it.
Sideswipes at members will not be tolerated.
Many thanks.
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Sheff
Re: 2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
There's not much I can add without being accused of shameless repetition! One thing I must add though is that some folks seem to have completely misinterpreted (or ignored) what I've said. I did state quite clearly that I am not criticising the RAF in any way and that I am most certainly not criticising the efforts of the Tucano display pilots - I don't see how I can be any clearer about that. I did however, criticise the thinking that is behind the RAF's public relations activities, particularly with regard to air shows. The two issues are not connected.
If I'm to be accused of being an "expert enthusiast" then so be it. Maybe that's what I am. I've been working as a writer and photographer for about thirty years and I maintained very good relations with the RAF throughout most of this period. I understand perfectly well what the RAF needs to get from public relations and promotion. It is only in the last few years that the situation seems to have deteriorated. In my opinion (and it is an opinion shared by others) the people who now oversee the RAF's public relations and other issues such as show participation, are a waste of space. It's no coincidence that many well-known, respected professional writers have simply stopped even trying to promote the RAF's activities because they can't deal with the frustration of working with the RAF's PR people any longer. This is partly why good-quality coverage of the RAF's activities in the aviation and more general press (books and magazines) has dwindled to almost zero. Without naming names, the situation has also effected the RAF itself with some of the key PR people expressing their own disillusionment with the way things have drifted. Some of these people have already gone and others are about to go and are glad to be going. This isn't ill-informed babble, it's the truth. I've discussed (if not argued!) some of these issues directly with the people involved, even going as far as CAS at one stage, but believe me it's almost a lost cause. The suggestion (thanks tg13!) that I should try "being more supportive" is almost comical. How could I be more supportive? By blindly praising everything I see? Real support can sometimes involve directing criticism when it is deserved.
I take your points LMP but I'm tempted to use the old Parliamentary phrase of "referring you to my previous statement" in which I have explained that I am specifically not condemning the RAF - quite the opposite in fact. I should also add that your suggestion that the RAF has "served me well" in my writing career gives the implication that it has been a one-sides process. I can assure you that it hasn't been, and the RAF has got more than a little in return!
Okay, we're probably at risk of going round in circles now! Ultimately, we'll have to agree to disagree but I stick with my views and I would urge others who disagree not to scoff at them because they're views that are shared by many other people. I cannot be more clear in my assertion that I am not criticising the men and women of the RAF in any way. However I stick with my view that the Tucano display is a waste of money (and effort on the part of the pilot!) and that the RAF's show participation could be much better if the will existed to do anything about it. Likewise I think it is entirely wrong to suggest that the taxpayer should be in any way "grateful" for an opportunity to occasionally see the RAF's personnel and equipment on display. I think that is a right to which we should all be entitled. I think Urkles makes a good point too - the Navy has always had a much better grasp of public relations and still does.
If I'm to be accused of being an "expert enthusiast" then so be it. Maybe that's what I am. I've been working as a writer and photographer for about thirty years and I maintained very good relations with the RAF throughout most of this period. I understand perfectly well what the RAF needs to get from public relations and promotion. It is only in the last few years that the situation seems to have deteriorated. In my opinion (and it is an opinion shared by others) the people who now oversee the RAF's public relations and other issues such as show participation, are a waste of space. It's no coincidence that many well-known, respected professional writers have simply stopped even trying to promote the RAF's activities because they can't deal with the frustration of working with the RAF's PR people any longer. This is partly why good-quality coverage of the RAF's activities in the aviation and more general press (books and magazines) has dwindled to almost zero. Without naming names, the situation has also effected the RAF itself with some of the key PR people expressing their own disillusionment with the way things have drifted. Some of these people have already gone and others are about to go and are glad to be going. This isn't ill-informed babble, it's the truth. I've discussed (if not argued!) some of these issues directly with the people involved, even going as far as CAS at one stage, but believe me it's almost a lost cause. The suggestion (thanks tg13!) that I should try "being more supportive" is almost comical. How could I be more supportive? By blindly praising everything I see? Real support can sometimes involve directing criticism when it is deserved.
I take your points LMP but I'm tempted to use the old Parliamentary phrase of "referring you to my previous statement" in which I have explained that I am specifically not condemning the RAF - quite the opposite in fact. I should also add that your suggestion that the RAF has "served me well" in my writing career gives the implication that it has been a one-sides process. I can assure you that it hasn't been, and the RAF has got more than a little in return!
Okay, we're probably at risk of going round in circles now! Ultimately, we'll have to agree to disagree but I stick with my views and I would urge others who disagree not to scoff at them because they're views that are shared by many other people. I cannot be more clear in my assertion that I am not criticising the men and women of the RAF in any way. However I stick with my view that the Tucano display is a waste of money (and effort on the part of the pilot!) and that the RAF's show participation could be much better if the will existed to do anything about it. Likewise I think it is entirely wrong to suggest that the taxpayer should be in any way "grateful" for an opportunity to occasionally see the RAF's personnel and equipment on display. I think that is a right to which we should all be entitled. I think Urkles makes a good point too - the Navy has always had a much better grasp of public relations and still does.
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JG71
Re: 2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
I have read both sides of the debate and would like to comment.
Firstly i have Thirty years of experience in the Royal Air Force.Twelve of which were as a serving member.So i feel i am more than able to comment and know what i am talking about.
Lets get something straight right from the start,the Royal Air Force is first and foremost a fighting force and the best in the world.We are the envy of the world.Our training is second to none.
We now come to displays and airshows.Why do we have these.It is to show and promote the Royal Air Force to the public.Now within a show we have guidelines.Those guidelines need to be strict for heavens sake.On the subject of the Tucano.I would rather a small object then stand the risk of God forbid an accident,and one landing on my head.Sheff you may think i am talking nonsense,but think of Ramstein.We have to learn by our mistakes and i am affraid the way you put it we should go back to Farnborough in the Fifties.Remember when they all stood on the side of the runway,sheer stupidity.
On the subject of the colour scheme,where this topic started.Why should you Sheff be bothered it is not like you are going to go see the aircraft.You are just going to moan like normal because it does not fit into your world.Another arm chair expert.
The Tucano display.Sheff for Gods sake man the Tucano deserves as much right as any other aircraft to display.The aircraft is part of the Royal Air force get used to it.
I suggest if you feel so strong,go knock on Bob Ainsworth's door and have a chat or are you just full of hot air.
I for one will be shaking the pilots hand when i meet him and will put up as many images as i can on every website just to make Sheff happy lol.
Kind regards
Jim Maher RAF Retired GSM and Bar,United Nations citation(Bigging myself up)
Firstly i have Thirty years of experience in the Royal Air Force.Twelve of which were as a serving member.So i feel i am more than able to comment and know what i am talking about.
Lets get something straight right from the start,the Royal Air Force is first and foremost a fighting force and the best in the world.We are the envy of the world.Our training is second to none.
We now come to displays and airshows.Why do we have these.It is to show and promote the Royal Air Force to the public.Now within a show we have guidelines.Those guidelines need to be strict for heavens sake.On the subject of the Tucano.I would rather a small object then stand the risk of God forbid an accident,and one landing on my head.Sheff you may think i am talking nonsense,but think of Ramstein.We have to learn by our mistakes and i am affraid the way you put it we should go back to Farnborough in the Fifties.Remember when they all stood on the side of the runway,sheer stupidity.
On the subject of the colour scheme,where this topic started.Why should you Sheff be bothered it is not like you are going to go see the aircraft.You are just going to moan like normal because it does not fit into your world.Another arm chair expert.
The Tucano display.Sheff for Gods sake man the Tucano deserves as much right as any other aircraft to display.The aircraft is part of the Royal Air force get used to it.
I suggest if you feel so strong,go knock on Bob Ainsworth's door and have a chat or are you just full of hot air.
I for one will be shaking the pilots hand when i meet him and will put up as many images as i can on every website just to make Sheff happy lol.
Kind regards
Jim Maher RAF Retired GSM and Bar,United Nations citation(Bigging myself up)
Re: 2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
I agree with sheff with everything he says, infact the day i saw a glider in the flying dispaly at waddo, i knew then i wouldnt be going to many more airshows and i havent... 07 being my last
I dont do aircrew either, to me the aircraft is a faceless object, i go for the aircraft not whose sat in it
And as for the aircraft colour, well quite frankly we (the raf) are a joke... yeah yeah yah.... blah blah blah... its a war machine and not something for our entertainment.... yeah well... so are the Germans, Dutch and Belgians etc
And dont get me started on families days and the aircraft thats put on for them, rediculous.... i only mean that in the contex that people say GR4.... C17...VC-10 etc ect cant make it to waddo airshow because of commitments in ''''''hot sandy places'''''' ...... but you will see X amount of said aircraft floating around the skies for a families day.... no sign of operational commitments on those days
Ive said it before and i'll say it again, the best airshow these days is standing on a sea bank on the Wash watching fast jets do what they do best, oh and its free
Sorry ive got no letters after my name and ive not been in the forces, but i hope my opinion still counts
I dont do aircrew either, to me the aircraft is a faceless object, i go for the aircraft not whose sat in it
And as for the aircraft colour, well quite frankly we (the raf) are a joke... yeah yeah yah.... blah blah blah... its a war machine and not something for our entertainment.... yeah well... so are the Germans, Dutch and Belgians etc
And dont get me started on families days and the aircraft thats put on for them, rediculous.... i only mean that in the contex that people say GR4.... C17...VC-10 etc ect cant make it to waddo airshow because of commitments in ''''''hot sandy places'''''' ...... but you will see X amount of said aircraft floating around the skies for a families day.... no sign of operational commitments on those days
Ive said it before and i'll say it again, the best airshow these days is standing on a sea bank on the Wash watching fast jets do what they do best, oh and its free
Sorry ive got no letters after my name and ive not been in the forces, but i hope my opinion still counts
Lee Blake
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viper3111
Re: 2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
I thought plane spotting was supposed to be a hobby, something we enjoy 
Why are people arguing over it!!!!!!
If you don't like going to airshows, don't go that's the beauty of the freedom of choice. But why spoil someone else's enjoyment.
I like the colourful schemes as it makes for interesting model subject. Whats the point slating people for not liking something/liking something, if you didn't like a show then write to the people who can do something about it, we can't . As Ive said before Ive been to so many 'last shows' and they are getting few and far between so I enjoy them whilst we still have them.
These threads are always ending in an argument at the moment so whats the point, I go to read them as they sound interesting like this one was and low and behold there is an argument. I do agree that we can and should discuss them but there is a fine line between discussing and arguing
Sorry, but that's how I feel
Why are people arguing over it!!!!!!If you don't like going to airshows, don't go that's the beauty of the freedom of choice. But why spoil someone else's enjoyment.
I like the colourful schemes as it makes for interesting model subject. Whats the point slating people for not liking something/liking something, if you didn't like a show then write to the people who can do something about it, we can't . As Ive said before Ive been to so many 'last shows' and they are getting few and far between so I enjoy them whilst we still have them.
These threads are always ending in an argument at the moment so whats the point, I go to read them as they sound interesting like this one was and low and behold there is an argument. I do agree that we can and should discuss them but there is a fine line between discussing and arguing
Sorry, but that's how I feel
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JG71
Re: 2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
Each to their own my dear Blakey.But i am sure if you got in your taxi and went down to Brize on the familes day and went to the 08 end you would not pay ask Pikey or Shaggie or Tony O.We had a lovely time in the sun.Come and join us next year.
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JG71
Re: 2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
Further more to Sheffs edition of War and Peace.I suggest you take a look at the latest Combat Aircraft Mag.Mmm i think i see an RAF Tornado.The article written by Jamie.I disagree very strongly that writers are fed up.Maybe its your attitude they are fed up with Tim.Because as an ex serviceman i see no present support from you at all and neither do my serving friends be it Ground or Aircrew.With your anti RAF attitude i am suprised you do not land up with a Brimstone up your rear.And i am sure i know a pilot very tempted to push that little red button.
You wonder why you get banned from so many web sites.You say and i quote you"You are all a bunch of idiots"
You talk about debate and then never listen.
You wonder why you get banned from so many web sites.You say and i quote you"You are all a bunch of idiots"
You talk about debate and then never listen.
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Sheff
Re: 2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
JG71 - to answer your points as concisely as possible:-
Not War and Peace just a full and frank explanation of my views. If stringing a sentence together is now considered to be a crime then I apologise.
Unless you know more aerospace writers than I do, then I can assure you that your assertion is wrong.
Features in Combat Aircraft by Jamie Hunter are not the sort of coverage I was talking about as I'm sure you know. I was referring to the serious stuff produced by the many respected and talented writers who have simply moved-on.
You see "no support" from me as I have also followed the same path as my colleagues, as I've explained previously.
I don't get "banned" from "so many" web sites. The only sites from which my membership was removed was/is UKAR and a couple of model aircraft sites, simply because I evidently failed to "kiss-up" to the appropriate egos concerned and ventured to argue points on which I felt I was entitled and qualified to express a view. I'm not sure who I accused of being "idiots" but based on my experience of such forums, the observation was probably correct!
As for not listening well of course I do listen. You seem to have failed to understand that listening doesn't necessarily mean agreeing.
More seriously, going back to your previous post which addressed part of the subject we were discussing, you mention both Farnborough and Ramstein. I have to say that the key points to bear in mind here are that both the DH110 and Frecce Tricolori accidents were not attributable to air display regulation deficiencies. The Frecce accident was caused by the team's own planning and its execution in the air. The DH110 accident was caused by structural failure. Neither accident would have been any different if restrictions on height or separation distance had been any different. Most of the current show regulations are simply ill-conceived "knee-jerk" reactions to accidents which bear no relation to real risk or safety. It's ludicrous that aircraft such as the Tucano have to be so far from the spectator that they might as well stay on the ground. It's even more absurd that it's deemed to be perfectly acceptable for non-paying spectators to stand as close as they like - as if by not paying an admission fee you're somehow less valuable!
Anyway, I think that answers everything and we're drifting even further away from Tucanos now so I'll leave it at that!
Not War and Peace just a full and frank explanation of my views. If stringing a sentence together is now considered to be a crime then I apologise.
Unless you know more aerospace writers than I do, then I can assure you that your assertion is wrong.
Features in Combat Aircraft by Jamie Hunter are not the sort of coverage I was talking about as I'm sure you know. I was referring to the serious stuff produced by the many respected and talented writers who have simply moved-on.
You see "no support" from me as I have also followed the same path as my colleagues, as I've explained previously.
I don't get "banned" from "so many" web sites. The only sites from which my membership was removed was/is UKAR and a couple of model aircraft sites, simply because I evidently failed to "kiss-up" to the appropriate egos concerned and ventured to argue points on which I felt I was entitled and qualified to express a view. I'm not sure who I accused of being "idiots" but based on my experience of such forums, the observation was probably correct!
As for not listening well of course I do listen. You seem to have failed to understand that listening doesn't necessarily mean agreeing.
More seriously, going back to your previous post which addressed part of the subject we were discussing, you mention both Farnborough and Ramstein. I have to say that the key points to bear in mind here are that both the DH110 and Frecce Tricolori accidents were not attributable to air display regulation deficiencies. The Frecce accident was caused by the team's own planning and its execution in the air. The DH110 accident was caused by structural failure. Neither accident would have been any different if restrictions on height or separation distance had been any different. Most of the current show regulations are simply ill-conceived "knee-jerk" reactions to accidents which bear no relation to real risk or safety. It's ludicrous that aircraft such as the Tucano have to be so far from the spectator that they might as well stay on the ground. It's even more absurd that it's deemed to be perfectly acceptable for non-paying spectators to stand as close as they like - as if by not paying an admission fee you're somehow less valuable!
Anyway, I think that answers everything and we're drifting even further away from Tucanos now so I'll leave it at that!
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Dunk
Re: 2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
Thanks Tim, was just about to post and request we get back on topic - ie Tucano display team!
If you wish to discuss airshow safety standards or the state of the RAF then please start a new thread.
Cheers
Dunk
If you wish to discuss airshow safety standards or the state of the RAF then please start a new thread.
Cheers
Dunk
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LMP
Re: 2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
Ah, an interesting debate has ensued. All I'm going to say on this matter now is that I wish all the 2010 Tucano Display Team every success for the forthcoming season and I'm sure the skill of the display will be appreciated by many. I shall be attending several shows next year in an 'official' capacity and I shall enjoy this and many other display acts for their grace and skill as well as sheer presence. If you should see me, then please do say hello!
With regard to this forum, both myself and my partner Flying Figgis greatly enjoy contributing here. I mainly do it for light-hearted fun as I am surrounded by the technical details of aircraft 5 days per week (sometimes more) and don't really come on here for that. However, I did feel it necessary to make a point about the reception the poor Tucano was getting on here. I can acknowledge the fact that it probably isn't the most exciting display item, but it has been round for some time now and has been displayed for many years without generating so much controversy on an aviation forum. I maintain that the Tucano is a worthy display item due to its' significance as a training aircraft. Many people I work with were interested in seeing a Tucano display before joining up and looked forward to becoming current on the type after seeing its capabilities at an airshow.
I by no means wish to generate a 'slanging match' on this forum and I believe in free and fair debate. It just struck me that the opinions of a very strong-minded member of this forum were being aired and I felt the need to balance the debate!
I shall now be off to work. I shall wave at you if you are outside the fence today! lol
'Aint she lovely? Awww......
With regard to this forum, both myself and my partner Flying Figgis greatly enjoy contributing here. I mainly do it for light-hearted fun as I am surrounded by the technical details of aircraft 5 days per week (sometimes more) and don't really come on here for that. However, I did feel it necessary to make a point about the reception the poor Tucano was getting on here. I can acknowledge the fact that it probably isn't the most exciting display item, but it has been round for some time now and has been displayed for many years without generating so much controversy on an aviation forum. I maintain that the Tucano is a worthy display item due to its' significance as a training aircraft. Many people I work with were interested in seeing a Tucano display before joining up and looked forward to becoming current on the type after seeing its capabilities at an airshow.
I by no means wish to generate a 'slanging match' on this forum and I believe in free and fair debate. It just struck me that the opinions of a very strong-minded member of this forum were being aired and I felt the need to balance the debate!
I shall now be off to work. I shall wave at you if you are outside the fence today! lol
'Aint she lovely? Awww......
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airtyphoon
- Posts: 767
- Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:50 pm
- Location: Trowbridge, Wiltshire
Re: 2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
For me i am just Happy the Tucano will be back on the display scene.
I wish the Tucano display team the best of luck for the forthcoming display season.
Thanks
airtyphoon
I wish the Tucano display team the best of luck for the forthcoming display season.
Thanks
airtyphoon
Nathan From Trowbridge.
My Flickr - http://www.flickr.com/photos/97920039@N05/
My Flickr - http://www.flickr.com/photos/97920039@N05/
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GOOSE
Re: 2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
Personally, I'm a huge fan of Heavy Metal type display acts. Jets all the way as far as I'm concerned, yet I do enjoy the old propellor classics.
That said we should, in my opinion, be glad for anything we get in these times of budget restraint and MOD / Military cost cutting.
That said we should, in my opinion, be glad for anything we get in these times of budget restraint and MOD / Military cost cutting.
Re: 2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
Thats a wierd point Goose, because if a Spitfire flys past im the first to raise my head skyward, but if it was a Tucano flying past i just aint botheredGOOSE wrote: yet I do enjoy the old propellor classics.
Maybe they (whoever is in charge of display teams) should put up 6 (all i can think of) training planes together for acouple of formation flypasts
What is there
Dominie
Kingair
Hawk
Tucano
Grob
Firefly
Nice tight formation, wheels down pass, Hawk and Tucano pulling high G break from formation.. Then maybe the Tuc goes into his display
Lee Blake
Re: 2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
Have to agree with Tim's points with regard to this one. I know were in tough times economically, and lets face it, its only going to get worse - military wise. In one respect I think we should be grateful for what we get now, however on the other hand, I am one of the spectators which goes to the loo, looks back at photos just taken on the camera, or goes for a beer when the Tucano, along with other small aircraft display. It does make me wonder how (and why) we can't manage a GR.4 display (even flypast) at Waddington but yet we get more than one in the air in formation for Her Majesty's Birthday; and that goes for a few other RAF aircraft, not just the GR.4.
Going back to Tucano's, I think that a formation of them, even if its just for one flypast would be more of a head-turner than a display. No disrespect to the pilot, as he/she was (and is) doing a sterling job in extreme professionalism for the benefit of the public, however it just doesn't compare on the excitement-ometer to aircraft such as the Typhoon and the Tornado.
Just my opinion
Joe
Going back to Tucano's, I think that a formation of them, even if its just for one flypast would be more of a head-turner than a display. No disrespect to the pilot, as he/she was (and is) doing a sterling job in extreme professionalism for the benefit of the public, however it just doesn't compare on the excitement-ometer to aircraft such as the Typhoon and the Tornado.
That sounds like a good idea, even if it is for one of two flypasts with a nice break at the end.blakey wrote: Maybe they (whoever is in charge of display teams) should put up 6 (all i can think of) training planes together for acouple of formation flypasts
What is there
Dominie
Kingair
Hawk
Tucano
Grob
Firefly
Nice tight formation, wheels down pass, Hawk and Tucano pulling high G break from formation.. Then maybe the Tuc goes into his display
Just my opinion
Joe
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garethbrum
Re: 2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
They worked on this idea two years ago - unfortunately, IIRC, the Hawk would be flying a little too slowly to make the formation safe in the event of an engine failure - nowhere to go but down!
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Sheff
Re: 2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
I'm with Joe on this kind of theme. Obviously, mixed-type formations might be too difficult to achieve but I don't see any reason why some types couldn't appear at the larger air shows as something more than solo acts. As I mentioned before, it seems logical that training sorties (which often include formation flying) could occasionally be switched to a weekend so that an air show appearance becomes part of training rather than being a separate task which has to be rehearsed and funded. Surely, for shows like RIAT, Waddington and Leuchars, the folks at Linton could manage to assemble a nine-ship formation to perform a couple of flypasts and perhaps a simple gear-down pass from each aircraft? It would be a good training opportunity, cost nothing, and be a much more visually-captivating event than a solo Tucano performing aerobatics a mile away.
But then I guess you have to ask why the short-lived Role Demo disappeared. One assumes that it was dumped because of cost, but you have to ask how the demonstration was judged to have costed anything at all? Apart from the cost of the fireworks, what did we have? Front-line types flying manoeuvres that were supposedly representative of normal operational flying. Given that this was the case, how was the exercise not judged to be just part of regular training activity - and therefore costing nothing? I can only assume that in the heady atmosphere of Whitehall or High Wycombe, the Role Demo was still regarded (and therefore funded) as an "air display" item. If this was the case, then surely an awful lot more could be achieved if simple non-aerobatic air show appearances were regarded as "training activities" rather than "displays"?
Oh well, it's merely an abstract thought! I don't imagine for a minute that anything will change. As Joe said previously, I think our only option is to enjoy what we still have while it lasts!
But then I guess you have to ask why the short-lived Role Demo disappeared. One assumes that it was dumped because of cost, but you have to ask how the demonstration was judged to have costed anything at all? Apart from the cost of the fireworks, what did we have? Front-line types flying manoeuvres that were supposedly representative of normal operational flying. Given that this was the case, how was the exercise not judged to be just part of regular training activity - and therefore costing nothing? I can only assume that in the heady atmosphere of Whitehall or High Wycombe, the Role Demo was still regarded (and therefore funded) as an "air display" item. If this was the case, then surely an awful lot more could be achieved if simple non-aerobatic air show appearances were regarded as "training activities" rather than "displays"?
Oh well, it's merely an abstract thought! I don't imagine for a minute that anything will change. As Joe said previously, I think our only option is to enjoy what we still have while it lasts!
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Flightline UK
- Posts: 643
- Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:44 pm
- Location: United Kingdom
- Contact:
Re: 2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
It was technically regarded as an "air display" item. The format of it and the way it had to be flown meant it had to get a "Public Dislpay Authoristion." That at least allowed aircraft to perform the limited aerobatics and formations seen as part of the routine etc.Sheff wrote:I can only assume that in the heady atmosphere of Whitehall or High Wycombe, the Role Demo was still regarded (and therefore funded) as an "air display" item. If this was the case, then surely an awful lot more could be achieved if simple non-aerobatic air show appearances were regarded as "training activities" rather than "displays"?
It was a large exercise, and meant that the airshow venues had to secure a RA(T) even larger than that required by the Red Arrows to incorporate at least six holds surrounding the veuue. many of you will remember Waddington 2007 when weather in more than one of those holds prevented the demo taking place. The costs of the logistics as well as the cost of providing the aircraft probably meant that the RAF felt it could no longer sustain the "team."
Confusingly, the RAF actually has another set of rules for "Role Demonstrations" that are performed at private events and very occasionally at airshows. These are very constricting affecting the way the aircraft is positioned and flown.
Goinf back to the Tucano, I can't see ig nine ships of Tucanos taking place at many airshows. Most displays teams are commited every weekend from Mid May to the end of September. The RAF has to support many different events from the large airshows to other none-aviation events. Many may not like the solo displays, but it has to be better to have "something rather than nothing at all."
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Sheff
Re: 2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
Prompts me to mention two points:-
As I said previously then, the problem seems to be the way in which "non-aerobatic" show appearances are still judged to be "demonstrations" rather than merely training activities, part of which happen to be conducted in front of the public. The complexities of the now-defunct Role Demo aside, it illustrates what I was getting-at, in that mock attacks, supply drops, overshoots, rollers or simple flypasts, etc., could be conducted as part of training and therefore (technically) cost nothing.
As for Tucano, well I'm prompted to say once again that if a nine-ship formation can be assembled for Graduation Ceremonies (with an audience of maybe fifty sometimes) then I see no reason why something similar couldn't be staged for RIAT, Waddington and Leuchars. Just doesn't add up.
As I said previously then, the problem seems to be the way in which "non-aerobatic" show appearances are still judged to be "demonstrations" rather than merely training activities, part of which happen to be conducted in front of the public. The complexities of the now-defunct Role Demo aside, it illustrates what I was getting-at, in that mock attacks, supply drops, overshoots, rollers or simple flypasts, etc., could be conducted as part of training and therefore (technically) cost nothing.
As for Tucano, well I'm prompted to say once again that if a nine-ship formation can be assembled for Graduation Ceremonies (with an audience of maybe fifty sometimes) then I see no reason why something similar couldn't be staged for RIAT, Waddington and Leuchars. Just doesn't add up.
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ElliotDC
Re: 2010 Tucano Display Team Announced
Well, it does... grads are week day events and air shows aren't... not getting into the rest of the argument, but agree with LMP earlier.Just doesn't add up
EDC