RAF Police Visit Today

[Bluetail]

I thought I would put this on today as there are lots of people viewing the CQWI from the Findhorn road when a member of the RAFP was attempting to move people away from the Kinloss fence.

First things first, the RAF Police do not have any authority to move you on if you are on land outwith RAF Kinloss, the only people who can do that are the normal Police and only if you are causing an obvious offence or obstruction, we had a similar inciodent a few years ago when the RAFP asked the Police to move people on, the Police just offered their advice knowing they couldnt do much if an offence wasnt being committed.
The authority of the RAFP only extends to the boundaries of the MOD land making up the camp. Saying that though please respect the drive way into the RAF Kinloss Station commanders residence, "Langcot House" (Thats the nice house across the road from the Viewing Enclosure) by NOT parking your car in the driveway and blocking his gates, I suggest that even standing in the drive way is probably bad manners as well (how would you like it) and may even be MOD land ,there is ample car parking in the Viewing Area Car park and its only a short walk to the viewing platform and dont forget there is plenty of room to see aircraft movement further down the road.

I also observed what appeared to be the RAFP asking people to move from the fence overlooking the airfield, again the RAFP cannot move you on from the Findhorn Road because they do not have any authority to do so. I believe if you politely ask to see what authority they have to do that, they will back off quickly.

With such a big exercise on going its probably caught out the RAFP with the amount of enthusiats turning up, so be polite and just stand your ground because we dont want the viewing area blocked off by some officious plod or councillor claiming its dangerous.

[np1991]

Thing is though, it's not enthusiasts thats the problem, it's tourists or people just passing and seeing thats there's activity (that they maybe aren't used to). Yesterday while the jets were coming in to land, there was at least 4 cars parked on the cycle path blocking it completly

[Mike]

there was at least 4 cars parked on the cycle path blocking it completly

The same happened today with a car and also a pickup truck pulling a huge trailer,the car driver got out leaving his wife reading the paper and walked over the road and leant on the fence for about 15 mins.
3 offences(at least) :- parking inbetween the runway traffic-lights,parking on a double yellow line and blocking the cycle-path.

Apart from that the arrivals between 15.00-15.55 were unbelievable,finishing-off with the 3 F-15s.

And well said bluetail,nice to see you again Sir.

[Mike]

Instead of going off-topic,I'll reply in the Kinloss log thread.

[Bluetail]

there was at least 4 cars parked on the cycle path blocking it completly

The same happened today with a car and also a pickup truck pulling a huge trailer,the car driver got out leaving his wife reading the paper and walked over the road and leant on the fence for about 15 mins.
3 offences(at least) :- parking inbetween the runway traffic-lights,parking on a double yellow line and blocking the cycle-path.

And well said bluetail,nice to see you again Sir.

Dont forget you are entitled to call the Police if someone is blocking a cycle path in Scotland, just like what the RAFP should have done. No doubt though we will get a visit at least once this week.

[headset 57]

Thing is though, it's not enthusiasts thats the problem, it's tourists or people just passing and seeing thats there's activity (that they maybe aren't used to). Yesterday while the jets were coming in to land, there was at least 4 cars parked on the cycle path blocking it completly

For a start, they are normal police. If you want ' normal police' to attend then be prepared to be stop checked.
No doubt your cars are already in the system anyway.
Secondly if i came down after you were requested by RAF Pol to move ' away ' from the fence line, i'd be giving the cars the once over and doing a stop on every motorist there!.

You say don't block the OC's house. I take it that's because you don't want to pee him off. Have you thought that he might have been the one wanting you away in the first place, and the Snowdrops were just doing they're job, and know that your all spotters, but they have orders and profiling routines to follow.

[np1991]

Thing is though, it's not enthusiasts thats the problem, it's tourists or people just passing and seeing thats there's activity (that they maybe aren't used to). Yesterday while the jets were coming in to land, there was at least 4 cars parked on the cycle path blocking it completly

For a start, they are normal police. If you want ' normal police' to attend then be prepared to be stop checked.
No doubt your cars are already in the system anyway.
Secondly if i came down after you were requested by RAF Pol to move ' away ' from the fence line, i'd be giving the cars the once over and doing a stop on every motorist there!.

You say don't block the OC's house. I take it that's because you don't want to pee him off. Have you thought that he might have been the one wanting you away in the first place, and the Snowdrops were just doing they're job, and know that your all spotters, but they have orders and profiling routines to follow.

Where in my post do I mention the OC's house?? I was referring to the idiots parking on the cycle path

[Thunder]

Thing is though, it's not enthusiasts thats the problem, it's tourists or people just passing and seeing thats there's activity (that they maybe aren't used to). Yesterday while the jets were coming in to land, there was at least 4 cars parked on the cycle path blocking it completly

For a start, they are normal police. If you want ' normal police' to attend then be prepared to be stop checked.
No doubt your cars are already in the system anyway.
Secondly if i came down after you were requested by RAF Pol to move ' away ' from the fence line, i'd be giving the cars the once over and doing a stop on every motorist there!.

You say don't block the OC's house. I take it that's because you don't want to pee him off. Have you thought that he might have been the one wanting you away in the first place, and the Snowdrops were just doing they're job, and know that your all spotters, but they have orders and profiling routines to follow.

I'm sorry but this post doesn't make sense to the quotation?

However

The local Police in this case Grampian, can only stop and check you if they beleive that you are about to or have committed an offence, clearly this is not the case in this matter.

What system would "spotters" cars be in then? The only system that would have the cars/drivers details logged is the National Police database which uses information supplied by the DVLA and that covers every car that is registered. Again the police can only access this information if a crime has been committed or they believe is to be committed.

You wouldn't get far with the attitude expressed in your second paragraph. The only place you would likely find yourself is in front of the your Inspector on grounds of public harassment and having to explain why you stopped and checked a dozen motorists not committing any crime.

Thankfully the spotters at both Kinloss and Lossiemouth have a good relationship with both the RAFP and Grampian Police and as long as no crime is being committed they don't bother us. As long as you use common sense and be polite to them they will be polite back.

[Bluetail]

Folks

Please dont get so het up, all I,ve asked is that you respect the Station Commander,s drive way, he is a new Station Commander and a very nice bloke as well, the last thing we want is to upset him, it just creates issue for the longer term.

And can I just re iterate, the RAF Police have absolutely no authority or jurisdiction other than on MOD property, they do not have the authority of a civil policeman, but they will report you if they think you are causing an issue, just like any member of the public can.

[Unknown74]

Where in relation to the Airfield is the Viewing Area? I take it it's across the other side of the road, how good is the view from there. Also is there a platform to view from? I've only ever really spotted in Morayshire at a certain Fast Jet base up the road.

[Bluetail]

Past the end of the runway towards Findhorn, you will see a small hut on the left side vitually opposite Lancot Hosue , go another 1/4 mile just past the Crash gate, on the left is the entrance to the Bird Hide & Viewers Car park, as you enter take the Track on the left for about 300yds
Once parked its a 5 minute walk back to the viewing area, which is signposted clearly.

[HighlandSniper]

Fmansam is correct, the moment you point your lens over the fence and take pix of or over the area of the base, you are getting into dangerous legal territory.

There have been major issues with the RAF Police and spotting at Kinloss in the past which are luckily all behind us, but getting the RAF Police's collective back up would be a very good way of screwing up our hobby in the area. Believe me with the current anti-terror legislation behind them, the RAF Plod and CIVPOL wouldn't have too much problem making spotter's lives very difficult - do you really want to ruin it for all of us?

OK, so I'm not as fanatical as some of our members, but I've been photographing military aircraft in this area for almost thirty years now without any problem, lets not spoil this for the sake of a bit of Barrack Room Lawyer "They can't move me on" behaviour, because the more difficult you are, the more difficult they'll make it for you.

Please don't spoil things for all of us.

[headset 57]

Thing is though, it's not enthusiasts thats the problem, it's tourists or people just passing and seeing thats there's activity (that they maybe aren't used to). Yesterday while the jets were coming in to land, there was at least 4 cars parked on the cycle path blocking it completly

For a start, they are normal police. If you want ' normal police' to attend then be prepared to be stop checked.
No doubt your cars are already in the system anyway.
Secondly if i came down after you were requested by RAF Pol to move ' away ' from the fence line, i'd be giving the cars the once over and doing a stop on every motorist there!.

You say don't block the OC's house. I take it that's because you don't want to pee him off. Have you thought that he might have been the one wanting you away in the first place, and the Snowdrops were just doing they're job, and know that your all spotters, but they have orders and profiling routines to follow.

I'm sorry but this post doesn't make sense to the quotation?

However

The local Police in this case Grampian, can only stop and check you if they beleive that you are about to or have committed an offence, clearly this is not the case in this matter.

What system would "spotters" cars be in then? The only system that would have the cars/drivers details logged is the National Police database which uses information supplied by the DVLA and that covers every car that is registered. Again the police can only access this information if a crime has been committed or they believe is to be committed.

You wouldn't get far with the attitude expressed in your second paragraph. The only place you would likely find yourself is in front of the your Inspector on grounds of public harassment and having to explain why you stopped and checked a dozen motorists not committing any crime.

Thankfully the spotters at both Kinloss and Lossiemouth have a good relationship with both the RAFP and Grampian Police and as long as no crime is being committed they don't bother us. As long as you use common sense and be polite to them they will be polite back.

Apart from the DVLA system, your vehicle will be on the MDP / RAFP intel site either as a S44 or S.61 stop check, along with any details you may have ' supplied' to the Police, and also may even get onto the SB desk of various forces.

Spotters watch members are also 'vetted' so that's another part of the system, if you're on one of those schemes.

Unlikely, and i can check any drivers details under S.151, 163, 164, 165of the RTA 1988 and S.28A of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994, or as you may know it, the old fashioned HORT1 or producer, which also underscores your first point of only accessing the DVLA / PNC bases when a crime has been committed, not so i reguarly check vehicles out in car parks, whether they have a driver, or not!.

You, can't just pick and chose who to, and not to obey just because the colour of their uniform they wear. Also if you, or anyone else decides to 'play up or verbally abuse' the RAFP then they will just stick in a report to the MDP who will more than likely come round and nick you under S.5 of the POA.

Don't confuse the MDP with the RAFP, they are civilians with full police powers and they are based at every raf base around.

Yes i would be checking every car there, that's the job that i do, so do the RAFP, especially if you're winding them up by not complying with a request, and your initial attitude on here seems that way, otherwise why come on and even start a thread about it. You obviously had a run in with someone up there and didn't want to comply, which would have got you onto their system but in the same tone don't want to pee the base commander off by blocking his drive, understandable but you can't have it both ways, especially as you suggest that standing in the drive way is bad manners but want to give the RAFP a hard time, which will reflect back on all of us.

They can get you to move off the the fence line, it's theirs and they can police both sides of the wire. just look at the problems that have been created by people down at Coningsby with just that attitude.

Let's say you have an accident or need their help outside the base, along comes RAFP who render assistance or nick the person responsible, cause they can under S.24 Pace 1984, you seriously saying you'd say no, i'll wait for the real cops to come from miles away. Equally if you needed the base ambulance or crash truck to help you out, i doubt you'd say no thanks i'll wait for a proper medic, not a part time wannabe...

they were also instrumental in the Soham searches with Polsa officers, so normal police obviously thought they had a lot to offer.

Same goes if an aircraft goes down on the outside of the fence where you are, don't tell me you're gonna stand there and say no i'm not moving you can't make me, only the real police can do that!...

Finally, they have the same ' citizen' powers of arrest as you and me, when on and off duty

http://www.policecommunitysupportoffice ... 2006v1.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
pages 8 - 14 apply to RAFP as well, although they will not be the prosecuting agency, that's the ' normal police' who do that!.

What i'm saying is, end of the day, if you upset the RAFP and the Locals or MoD Plod come out don't be surprised if you get stopped, cause your car and details will definitely be on the RAFP intel system.

[HighlandSniper]

Isn't this going a touch too far now?

I'm not a moderator, but I suggest this thread ought to be allowed to cool off before it gets out of hand.

[SteveS]

As long as everyone plays civil and doesn't resort to personal abuse, I'm happy to allow this to continue.

[Bluetail]

[quote="HighlandSniper"]Fmansam is correct, the moment you point your lens over the fence and take pix of or over the area of the base, you are getting into dangerous legal territory.

OK then,

So why build a viewing enclosure in the first place and advertise it as the AIRCRAFT VIEWING ENCLOSURE, and then put up a sign showing the types of aircraft that can be viewed, I suspect any half decent lawyer would not have to much of a problem if someone was pulled for taking "ILLEGAL" photographs. Exactly how is trying to control photography over the fence going to be policed, the CIVPOL most certainly would not be interested, (Manpower & Time) MODPLODS & RAFP much same I suspect

I also witnessed the following today, and I was only there for an hour, A white car came from Findhorn and parked in the Langcott House entrance for at least 20 minutes, he totally ignored the sign asking not to park, the CIVPOL drove past and didnt even stop,there were also lots of enthusiasts at the fence and on the path at the same time.
Several cars just stopping on the double yellows or slowing down to a crawl, the same CIVPOL even just drove past those....Mind you the the viewing area was chocker.

I also believe one of the F-15 crews came down for a chat to meet the gang, and at least two Typhoons broke into the circuit right over the crowd as well, so the crews know we are here, and they want us to get some good shots

You chaps are a bit stressed on this one though arent you.

[headset 57]

Not stressed, but pointing out that you're only gonna get the RAFP backs up.

ok., someone parked in the OC's drive,and stayed 20 minutes or so!. Locals drove past, believe me this what the RAFP and MDP do, day in day out, and they will attend. It's not as if they're fighting crime, even by their own standards.

Any reason why you didn't call it in to the Police as you've obviously seen them there for the duration, after all your eyes and ears too.

or better still stick this one in your mobile:

MPGS/RAF Police on Tel. 01309 692192 / 01309 672161 Ext 7447.

they will come out in force if need be!.

help them to help you, and they'll thank you for it.

anyway that's all from me, by the way i stop spotters all the time, mainly for a chat and to see what in or due in, and i've been stopped twice in the last month by the old bill at 2 airports, so it works both ways, especially with FAB coming up.

useful link

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/pow ... nd-search/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What information will I need to provide?

You don’t have to give your name, address or date of birth to the police if you’re stopped and searched unless you’re being reported for an offence.

However, you will be asked what you describe your ethnic origin as. It’s important that you give this information to the officer, as this is how we monitor disproportionate stopping of ethnic minorities and encourage police accountability.

The officer will make a record of the search and give you a copy of the form or a receipt. Information will be held on the encounter, rather than on you as an individual, which allows police to develop community intelligence and ensures officers are accountable for their actions. Information will only be held on file against you if you are charged with an offence resulting from the search.

[Mike]

The problem DOES NOT stem from aviation enthusiasts at Kinloss,the problem is caused by Joe Public who stop their vehicles inbetween the runway traffic-lights (some actually just stop and others park on the cycle-path).Others,like yesterday,block the access to Langcot House.

I don't know what's right and what's wrong when it comes to pointing a camera over or through a fence at a Military base,I've been doing it for well over 40 years and at no time have I ever had a problem with the police.

I really don't know what the problem is here,it's got nothing to do with rules and regulations of RAFP or normal Police,just behave at airfields and you'll get loads of great photos and logs to enjoy for ever.

[Bluetail]

Blue tail

OK then,

So why build a viewing enclosure in the first place and advertise it as the AIRCRAFT VIEWING ENCLOSURE, and then put up a sign showing the types of aircraft that can be viewed, I suspect any half decent lawyer would not have to much of a problem if someone was pulled for taking "ILLEGAL" photographs.

you are misled by these lawyers, as far as time and memorial goes, Mod property is Mod property, you never have been allowed, without permit, WRONG to takes piccies.. inside a camp I agree out side a camp I disagree however common sense resides and they say hey... let them take pics for legit reasons, spotting!!! WRONG
the viewing area is built to help joe public and give a good profile of the forces... also its built for your safety!!! WRONG AGAINunder the latest terrorism act, legally you cannot even take pictures of service families houses, but again common sense provails, ERR WRONG AGAIN You are not doing very well are you
everyone was asking why they put up a big fence at leuchars, and they were saying is this to stop the spotters, well, no actually, one reason was the peace protestors that broke on camp during gw2 so why did it take the over 10 years to put up a fence then and also to prevent the attitude people from trying to sue the Mod cause they fell off the fence whilst climbing it. Oh Dear WRONG AGAIN few spoilt it for the rest!!

but all i can say is this, if i was there and i knew people had the attitude that you seem to have, WRONG AGAIN then i personally would ask you why you seem to want to rebel, i think you need to get a grip of reality, I have a fantastic grip on reality unlike you stop acting like a petulant child I,m way less childish than you and stop rocking the boat, yes the police can sometimes have a flea in there ears and be a pain, caused by muppets and people who think they have more power than they actually have but i bet you people with your attitude can be worse, and will, in time spoil it for others!! no I wont

I,m actually protecting the rights of law abiding citizens against thin skinned over zealous control freaks by pointing out perfectly normal rights THE RAF Plods have no authority out side a MOD establishment over and above what a normal citizen has.

[Thunder]

THE RAF Plods have no authority out side a MOD establishment over and above what a normal citizen has.

I'm with Jim on this one, I have just spoke to a friend of mine who just happens to be in Grampian Police and he has confirmed what I already knew myself through both good and bad experiences The RAFP have no authority outside the wire, they may request you to move on but thats it, if they feel to go any further then they must call upon the services of the local force, which in Scotland if you aren't causing an offence or obstruction there isn't much they will or can do.

Does the differences in certain laws between Scotland and England affect this matter?

Anyway as has been said it isn't the enthusiast's that are causing the problem, and Jim(Bluetail) certainly isn't going to spoil anything for anyone so please refrain from abusive posts towards fellow spotters, aren't we all meant to be on the same side.